IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 5 January 2013   (all times are UTC)

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13:04
<ltspuser_21>
hi
13:05
can anyone tell me how to use ltsp gui manager
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16:14
<alkisg>
So... wrt to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/1093144
16:14
At that point, the fat client "session" command has indeed terminated:
16:15
user 1784 0.1 0.0 5888 1752 tty7 S 18:05 0:00 su - user -c LTSP_CLIENT_MAC=00:E0:4C:6D:4D:81 LTSP_FATCLIENT=True LTSP_CLIENT=10.160.67.12 LTSP_CLIENT_HOSTNAME=ltsp12 LTSP_FATCLIENT=True
16:15
LC_ALL=el_GR.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=el_GR.UTF-8 LANG=el_GR.UTF-8 DISPLAY=:7 ICEAUTHORITY=/var/run/ldm-xauth-LCd6b4U1E/ICEauthority XAUTHORITY=/var/run/ldm-xauth-LCd6b4U1E/Xauthority /etc/X11/Xsession "gnome-session --session=gnome-fallback"
16:15
...along with another 14 of the user processes
16:15
But, about 32 user processes are still running at the point where X99-zlocalapps-cleanup gets to run
16:16
I don't think we can "fix" those 32 processes to exit properly with the session, they're too many
16:19
<knipwim>
were those processes originally forked from the session?
16:19
<alkisg>
knipwim: define "fork"...
16:20
I think the "session" is losely defined as processes that share a common environment variable
16:20
For xsession, that's "DISPLAY", where for a dbus session, that's DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS
16:20
I don't think it matters where these processes got spawned from
16:21
And it's up to the processes to properly exit when their session exits
16:21
<knipwim>
ok, maybe i'm not sure what the problem exactly is, but when i do a ps fax from a local-apps xterm
16:21
i see all these processes "forked" from the screen_session
16:22
<alkisg>
ps fax: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1500044/
16:22
The starting "su" session command has exited at that point though
16:23
<knipwim>
is it about closing some of the toplevel process?
16:23
or the processes beneath screen_session
16:23
<alkisg>
knipwim: that `ps fax` above is while X99-zlocalapps-cleanup runs
16:23
At that point we e.g. try to fusermount -uqz ${LDM_HOME}
16:24
But the gvfs process is still using ~/.gvfs at that point, so it's an unclean unmount
16:25
user 1916 0.0 0.1 33736 2588 ? Sl 18:06 0:00 /usr/lib/gvfs//gvfs-fuse-daemon -f /home/user/.gvfs
16:25
<knipwim>
can't we kill the gvfs process before it tries a fusermount?
16:26
<alkisg>
Yes, but we shouldn't have to do that on a per process/per case basis
16:26
We want to run the cleanup code after all the user processes die, not forcefully kill them because we're running at the wrong time
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16:29
<alkisg>
Hmmm both on an ltsp client, and on a non-ltsp system, I see that some of the user processes have PPID=gnome-session, and others have PPID=1
16:29
The ones with PPID=gnome-session do exit properly...
16:30
So maybe the others get spawned by some other, "non proper" means...
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16:30
<alkisg>
Alt+F2, gnome-calculator, ps -ef ==> PPID=1
16:32
<knipwim>
would that be a bug for gnome-calculator then?
16:32
<alkisg>
Could be for gnome-panel, that it starts child processes without the proper parent pid
16:33
Now, comparing the environment of a process "a" with PPID=1, and a process "b", with PPID=gnome-session:
16:33
...DESKTOP_AUTOSTART_ID=10acadfd98702f2ed0135739389713514100000017630010 exists only in "b",
16:33
and in a: DISPLAY=:0.0, while in b: DISPLAY=:0
16:35
So the environment looks fine...
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16:35
<knipwim>
http://osdir.com/ml/linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/2007-10/msg00037.html
16:35
is that related ?
16:36
<alkisg>
It's talking about the same thing, yeah... it's true that many would not consider it a bug
16:37
In any case, I think we shouldn't try to solve it at the gnome level, but at the ltsp level
16:37
I.e. run our cleanup later
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16:48
<Guest85127>
hello .. help me pls .. is there any complete how to install firefox and gimp as localapps
16:55
<knipwim>
Guest85127: basically enter the client chroot, install the apps and restart the client
16:55
what distro?
16:56
<Guest85127>
ubuntu 12.04 pls
16:56
iam newbie
16:57
<knipwim>
to make the client image, did you do a ltsp-build-client?
16:57
(i'm not experienced with ubuntu)
16:59
which client image are you using? in /opt/ltsp/images
17:02
<Guest85127>
yes i do ltsp-build-client client image at /opt/ltsp/i386
17:04
<knipwim>
can you do a ltsp-chroot --arch=i386 -m
17:04
not on a running client
17:05
preferably
17:05
you might get unexpected unmount errors when unmounting
17:06
<Guest85127>
(sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 mount -t proc proc /proc) i think i use this command to mount on my ltsp
17:06
<knipwim>
don't you have ltsp-chroot?
17:06
(sudo ltsp-chroot --help)
17:07
<Guest85127>
yes i can do that on my server
17:08
<knipwim>
you can use the ltsp-chroot to chroot into ltsp environments
17:08
<Guest85127>
iam in root now ..
17:08
<knipwim>
http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot
17:09
can you install the packages?
17:10
<Guest85127>
i dont think so
17:10
<knipwim>
what makes you say that
17:12
<Guest85127>
thanks knipwim i think i got the idea :)
17:13
thank you very much
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17:13
<alkisg>
http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot, with capital L? why so?
17:14
<knipwim>
hmm, i doubt it
17:14
but we'll see
17:14
alkisg: it's a mediawiki thing
17:14
can't be helped
17:15
<alkisg>
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Template:Lowercase
17:15
(don't know if it's worth it, just googled it...)
17:17
<knipwim>
cool
17:29
http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Ltsp-chroot
17:29
now the rest
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17:49
<markit>
hi alkisg, I've helped a school tecnician to make ltsp work fine, they were desperate since the "local guru" was not able to set it properly since some months
17:49
alkisg: the merit is yours :)
17:50
<knipwim>
good work markit
17:50
<alkisg>
Mine? Nah, plainly you, good work :)
17:51
<markit>
alkisg: your knowledge (properly stored in a ton of notes) has gone through my ssh typing ;P
17:52* alkisg would suggest that markit moves his ton of notes to the ltsp wiki!
17:53
<markit>
alkisg: I'm editing it times to time, but I've a "bible" in italian that is hard to translate, and once I would have finisched, would have been obsolete
17:54
<alkisg>
markit: is anyone else reading that bible, or just you?
17:54
<markit>
but sure I will review the wiki and "inject" some info
17:54
alkisg: is public available, CC
17:54
<alkisg>
Yeah ok that's understandable
17:54
<markit>
like my scripts, but seems that everyone wants to reinvent the wheel
17:54
and then ask me for help ;P
17:54
<alkisg>
I too maintain an ltsp wiki in greek, but I couldn't do it for both greek + english
17:55
<markit>
alkisg: only one problem, I've not clear what features are > 12.04 since I'm using your repo and a more recent ltsp packages
17:55
<alkisg>
So we'll have to find translators... either from english => greek, or even from greek => english, with google translate etc
17:55
<markit>
alkisg: btw, nice the screen feature for multiuser
17:55
<alkisg>
markit: you can check the ubuntu ltsp 12.10 changelog
17:55
Or the ltsp trunk code
17:55
<markit>
^a :multiuser on
17:56
and connect with screen -x sessionname
17:56
<alkisg>
We have that in epoptes, yeah
17:56
!screen
17:56
<ltsp>
I do not know about 'screen', but I do know about these similar topics: 'shell-screen', 'disable_lock_screen', 'SCREEN_08', 'socat-screen', 'SCREEN_02', 'lock-screen'
17:56
<alkisg>
!socat-screen
17:56
<ltsp>
socat-screen: to share a local thin client shell with a remote person, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/socat-screen
17:56* markit should not only say everybone how epoptes is good, but also use and master himself, shame on me!
17:56
<markit>
oh, I know that
17:57
but I never treid and did not realize was a "shared" screen
17:57
<alkisg>
It's used internally by epoptes, via a GUI
17:57
<markit>
I thought the trick was just the "reverse" connection
17:57
but the "assisted" were unable to see it
17:57
<alkisg>
Nah the client, "teacher", usually wants to see what's going on, so it's shared
17:58
<markit>
alkisg: so good (as usual from your side, lol)
18:01
alkisg: btw, did you solved the "not perfect cleanup" that was bugging you since 12.04?
18:01
<alkisg>
Nope, sbalneav started working on this but he needs feedback
18:01
<markit>
I've suggested the guy of the school to put a crontab to reboot the server nightly
18:01
<alkisg>
I'm too trying to work on it from a different perspective
18:02
<markit>
LDM_LIMIT_ONE_SESSION=True does not help?
18:02
<alkisg>
No
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18:04
<alkisg>
Hmm we mess the environment a bit too..
18:04
E.g. "LANGUAGE=el_GR.UTF-8" while normally it is "LANGUAGE=el:en"
18:14
Another reason why unmounting /home/user before user processes terminate, fails, is that /home/username/.xsession-errors is still in use because of the stderr redirection
18:15
<jammcq>
hey alkisg
18:15
<alkisg>
Hi jammcq
18:15
<jammcq>
alkisg: can you tell me what ltsp-pnp is?
18:15
<alkisg>
Sure!
18:15
!ltsp-pnp
18:15
<ltsp>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
18:16
<jammcq>
i haven't been around enought to follow the latest stuff
18:16
<alkisg>
So basically you install ltsp-server and ltsp-client at the same time, and run ltsp-update-image on the whole disk itself
18:17
No chroots are used, the "server" is used as a template client chroot as well
18:17
<jammcq>
does it copy everything from the server into the client image?
18:18
<alkisg>
No, there's a cleanup phase on a tmpfs/aufs of the server root /
18:18
<jammcq>
who's using this?
18:18
<alkisg>
All greek schools, and a few others reported using it at the ltsp-discuss ml
18:18
And here too
18:18
<jammcq>
this is almost the same thing as LTSP-1.0
18:18
<alkisg>
Hehe
18:18
<markit>
alkisg: when you upgraded greek schools to 12.04, you did to ltsp-pnp? wow
18:18
<jammcq>
or maybe pre 1.0
18:19
<alkisg>
markit: yeah I implemented ltsp-pnp for greek schools, and it wasn't ready for 12.04,
18:19
<jammcq>
but around that time, we were seeing 386, 486 and 586 processors
18:19
and then 686
18:19
<alkisg>
so then we used a ppa + a newer trunk version
18:19
<jammcq>
when the 686 came out, the clients couldn't run the same code as the server
18:19
<alkisg>
jammcq: well one could use the same idea with a physical "template client"
18:19
E.g. suppose I want to use ltsp with i386 server and arm thin clients,
18:20
I install an arm distro on a thin client normally , with a GUI (again no chroots involved),
18:20
then run ltsp-update-image on it to get the nbd disk,
18:20
and just transfer the nbd disk to the server
18:20
(or use NFS somewhere there)
18:20
<jammcq>
how big is the nbd disk?
18:20
<alkisg>
Again, a cleanup phase etc will be needed, so the ltsp-pnp parts should be there too
18:20
A normal ubuntu installation is just under 1 gb
18:21
<jammcq>
normal ubuntu ltsp-pnp ?
18:21
<alkisg>
But we've also been using huge disks of 5 gb
18:21
<jammcq>
how much ram do you need on the client to run those?
18:21
<alkisg>
Normal == just installing ubuntu from the live cd and ltsp-pnp without any extra software
18:21
It's like a local installation, so the ubuntu specs apply
18:22
Lubuntu ~= 512 mb, ubuntu ~= 1 gb etc
18:22
<jammcq>
i've got a use case, where we just want to run a browser locally, probably with a simple window manager like Icewm or xfce
18:22
the customer is using RHEL6
18:22
<alkisg>
And what about user homes? Should data be stored, or is it like a kiosk?
18:22
<jammcq>
so that makes it a bit more complex
18:23
i'm not sure about user homes yet
18:23
it's for schools
18:23
it might be more like a kiosk
18:23
possibly storing user homes on a usb key
18:23
I need to have a meeting with them to iron out the details
18:23
<alkisg>
The ltsp-pnp idea is most useful when the site doesn't have a sysadmin
18:23
So noone knows about chroots, terminal commands etc
18:24
<jammcq>
they want to run hundreds of thing clients from a single server. I think if they try to run the sessions on the server they'll need a mainframe
18:24
<alkisg>
If there's a sysadmin there, it won't matter much to him if he uses a chroot or not
18:24
There's a KIOSK session for thin chroots, which runs the browser locally (localapp)
18:24
SCREEN_07=kiosk <URL>
18:24
<jammcq>
hmm
18:24
which browser?
18:25
<alkisg>
Any
18:25
<jammcq>
i'm just collecting ideas right now
18:25
but I really like the idea of running as much local as possible
18:25
the thin clients have 2GB of ram and 2GHz cpu
18:25
<alkisg>
If the clients have 1 Gb RAM and at least an atom CPU, yeah, there's no point in running things at the server
18:26
Wow, ok, go for fat clients
18:26
<jammcq>
too much power to sit there and just run an xserver
18:26
what's the boot time like on a fat client?
18:26
<alkisg>
And is the RHEL6 a restriction for the chroot too, or only for the server?
18:26
It's usually lower than a standalone client
18:26
<jammcq>
well... I'd like to convince them to go with either Ubuntu or Debian for the chroot
18:26
but they REALLY like Redhat
18:26
<alkisg>
On 10.04 I got 12 seconds for really quick clients (pxe to ldm), but now it's a bit slower, 30-40 secs
18:27
<jammcq>
so I might need to show them a demo
18:27
<alkisg>
You should talk with Hyperbyte for the RHEL vs Ubuntu thing, he used both (fedora, at least)
18:27
<jammcq>
hmm
18:27
<alkisg>
It's the problem with the ltsp maintainance there
18:27
<jammcq>
i've been talking with Warren togami a bit about it. he's willing to guide me through the Fedora/RHEL bits
18:28
<alkisg>
Sure, if you're up to pushing fixes... I'm sure RHEL users would welcome them
18:28
<jammcq>
I was surprised that LTSP for fedora was as far as it is
18:28
I really like RH for servers
18:28
<markit>
btw, fedora has also the "multisead feature" that is very interesting (not in your case, but if you are curious)
18:29
<jammcq>
not crazy about it for desktops, but if we're using Icewm or xfce, it doesn't much matter
18:29
what is multisead?
18:29
<alkisg>
There was a person here interested in picking up fedora/ltsp maintainance, but warren didn't give him the "keys", no idea why...
18:29
<markit>
multiseat, sorry
18:29
<jammcq>
hmm, warren told me he thought he had someone to take over, but the guy disappeared
18:29
<markit>
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Multiseat
18:29
<jammcq>
wonder if it's the same guy
18:29
or if there's a misunderstanding between them
18:30
<alkisg>
Maybe... i've been seeing a person here for 1 year or so, and warren didn't reply to him, i think
18:30
Anyways
18:30
<jammcq>
he's in grad school right now and said he'd have some time in February to sort it out
18:30
but he'd really like to offload it to a new maintainer
18:30
ahhh, multiseat
18:31
<alkisg>
I think sending a mail to the ltsp-devel ML would be a good start for letting people know a new maintainer is needed for fedora
18:32
<jammcq>
I played with ChromeOS yesterday
18:32
and I'm wondering what it would take to make that net-bootable
18:32
the problem is, the image is about 2.3GB
18:33
but it's basically a browser interface
18:34
<alkisg>
The size doesn't matter, as long as the OS supports some remote file system
18:34
Like NFS or NBD
18:34
<jammcq>
ChromeOS is a linux kernel
18:34
and it's all opensource, so I know it's possible
18:35
<alkisg>
I think once someone asked about porting ltsp to chromeos...
18:35
<jammcq>
I think it would be the other way around
18:35
but actually, it's just making chromeos netbootable
18:36
so maybe it's not ltsp at all, just "like ltsp"
18:36
<alkisg>
Well, if one makes it use ssh for authentication, nfs for shared homes, lts.conf for shared settings... then it's ltsp :P
18:37
(and the netbooted part of course)
18:38
<jammcq>
there's definitely some overlap
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19:12
<alkisg>
knipwim or anyone... $ grep -r run_xk_scripts .
19:12
./client/share/ltsp/screen-x-common:run_xk_scripts() {
19:13
...the XK scripts don't get called... did they get called previously?
19:19
Meh... unfortunately at the XK point, LDM_HOME etc are not set so we can't do the cleanup without reorganizing things
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19:21
<markit>
alkisg: ltsp changelog from 12.04 to 12.10 is wow, very long! wondering if 12.04 is even working ;P
19:21
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/quantal/+source/ltsp/+changelog
19:22
<alkisg>
:)
19:23
<markit>
ltsp-config never heard about it
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19:25
<alkisg>
It's a new tool that helps in configuring an ltsp server... for example, ltsp-config lts.conf gives you an example lts.conf file
19:25
So, about the cleanup stuff
19:26
We run fusermount -uqz ${LDM_HOME}; rmdir ${LDM_HOME} while the user processes are still running
19:26
Then, some of them need to "flush" some data while being terminated
19:27
So they generate /home/username/.config/* locally on the client, in the aufs image
19:27
And on subsequent logins, the user home dir doesn't get mounted with sshfs because our code thinks the sysadmin has somehow configured local homes
19:28
So solving the "unmount after processes terminate" would also solve the "$HOME doesn't get mounted with sshfs on second+ logon"
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