IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 1 March 2009   (all times are UTC)

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01:18
<ball>
Does ltsp care what operating system is running on the host where the X clients will run?
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01:35
<cyberorg>
ball, ltsp does not care even if you dont have a disk on the client
01:37
<ball>
cyberorg: I hope to run the X server on terminals with no hard disk drive. The machine that will run the clients has a RAID array
01:49
I should go to bed. I can't keep my eyes open.
01:50
Goodnight cyberorg
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12:53
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Hello - sorry I wasn't there last evening when you responded to my 'no response from server, restarting' error.
12:54
You mentioned a few things which I have tried:
12:54
1) user is disallowed from login in sshd_config -- this is a new clean install so I only have 4 users. I just created this last user via webmin so I didn't add him to sshd_config
12:55
2) you said to look in /var/log/ldm.log on the thin client. I activated the shell on the client, but the issue is I can't view the log because as soon as the error comes up, the thin client reboots and the log is gone
12:59
So I am not sure what to do. I also tried changing the password to make sure it was the correct one but the client still reboots everytime he tries to log in
13:04
I tried deleting and recreating the account but it still does the same thing
13:06
<Lumiere>
TheProf: can the account login on the server?
13:07* Lumiere waves at sbalneav and ogra
13:07
<TheProf>
Lumiere: hello. I don't really have a way of testing that as the server is a computer locked away in a room without screen/keyboard/mouse
13:07vagrantc has joined #ltsp
13:07
<TheProf>
Lumiere: would that be the only way to test it?
13:07
<Lumiere>
can it log in from a non-thin client?
13:07
hi vagrantc, long time no see
13:08
<TheProf>
Lumiere: I don't have any non-thin clients :(
13:08
<Lumiere>
TheProf: you don't have a personal laptop
13:08
or anything with an actual OS on it?
13:09
<TheProf>
oh. I'm sure it can log in -- I would just have to create an account. I don't have a central LDAP type system for logins
13:09
the username format is fr.name
13:09
I have 2 accounts in that format that work, the third doesn't
13:10
<Lumiere>
TheProf: if you are on the personal laptop or w/e you can use putty or ssh fr.name@ldap.server.ip
13:10
to test if ssh works
13:10
for that account
13:11
<TheProf>
Could I do that via a loopback? fr.name@127.0.0.1 off another client account that works?
13:11
<Lumiere>
yea
13:11
<TheProf>
alright I will try that now
13:14
Lumiere: Very interesting. It does not work with that last account. It works fine with all the previously-created accounts. That last account I get the error: Permission denied, please try again.
13:14
<Lumiere>
as root go into that users directory and do ls -la
13:15
<TheProf>
Lumiere: I am a huge idiot.
13:15
That showed me the problem
13:16
the username had a typo
13:16
argh.
13:16
<Lumiere>
hey it's a resolution
13:16
<TheProf>
Lumiere: sorry.
13:16
<Lumiere>
np
13:16
<TheProf>
Just to make sure I'm going to delete the account and recreate it correctly
13:16
<Lumiere>
k
13:20
<TheProf>
Lumiere: it worked!
13:20
<Lumiere>
congrats
13:20
<TheProf>
How come the thin client reboots when it encounters such an error?
13:20
Lumiere: and thank you for your patience :)
13:20
<Lumiere>
TheProf: not sure why it reboots
13:21
<TheProf>
Lumiere: no problem. just more curious about the strange behaviour.
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14:55
<vagrantc>
hrm. i should just ship ltsp-server with ldminfod until ldm-server gets accepted (which i haven't even uploaded yet)
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15:23
<jhutchins>
Is there anything new (particularly documentation) on local USB decivices in Debian Lenny?
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15:31
<vagrantc>
jhutchins: nothing new really ... make sure your users are the in fuse group and that ltspfs is installed on the server they're logging into.
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15:36
<vagrantc>
jhutchins: you're welcome to start some documentation at http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/* if there's something you find missing.
15:37
<jhutchins>
vagrantc: Unfortunately what's missing is whatever other step it takes to make it work.
15:38
vagrantc: If I find it though, I'll remember that you recommendedthe wiki.
15:38
<vagrantc>
jhutchins: what sort of devices are you trying?
15:39
jhutchins: and have you rebooted the machine since installing ltspfs? there's a recurring bug in fuse that it doesn't get the permissions right on /dev/fuse on initial install in some cases.
15:40
<jhutchins>
I did find a note about enabling users in /etc/fuse.conf
15:40
haven't tested since trying that.
15:40
<vagrantc>
shouldn't need to.
15:41
<jhutchins>
Not sure about reboot since ltspfs. Client yes, server...
15:41
<vagrantc>
jhutchins: ls -l /dev/fuse
15:41
<jhutchins>
client or server?
15:41
<vagrantc>
server
15:41
<jhutchins>
Ah, I see. Yes, users are members of fuse.
15:41
Actually, the only thing I've tried since I upgraded to lenny has been an ipod.
15:42
I need to try a regular usb drive.
15:42
<vagrantc>
try a variety of devices ... it's not 100% perfect.
15:42
<jhutchins>
client system sees the drive hotplug, but doesn't mount.
15:42
...or offer to.
15:42
<vagrantc>
i've tried with a few USB sticks, USB cdrom, USB floppy, floppy, cdrom
15:43
firewire drives...
15:43
<jhutchins>
Some do, some don't?
15:43
<vagrantc>
the ones that i tested work now, because i fixed them.
15:43
<jhutchins>
heh.
15:43
<vagrantc>
but there's always some oddball device out there that's different from all the others.
15:43* jhutchins heads downstairs to test a stick.
15:44
<vagrantc>
so it's good to check a few devices just to see if any of them work.
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16:15
<hick518>
I'd love to see a lightweight chroot environment based on Damn Small Linux, or some other lightweight distro. I'm not a programmer, but I'm willing to approach the DSL devs to see if they're willing to help. Problem is I'm not exactly sure what they will need to provide. Any advice? Any docs I should read? I've read http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/MueKow
16:15
By the way, the purpose of this would be to run LTSP on lower-spec hardware than LTSP 5 allows.
16:16
Currently allows, that is.
16:19
<TheProf>
Hello. I have a question -- can a network cable issue prevent a thin client from PXE booting? That is unable to even see the DHCP server? Both the switch shows a cable is connected and there is a link and the NIC lights on the thin client show there is a connection and a link but it gets stuck looking for a DHCP server. I tried another computer but same issue.
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16:26
<Lumiere>
hick518: if you're looking for really low spec hardware... you might want to ask about ltsp4... as far as I remember the ltsp5 architecture was meant for slightly more computer
16:26
but I could be wrong... I haven't jacked into LTSP development in years
16:31
<hick518>
Lumiere: I've used LTSP 4.2 for my really low-spec thin clients, but I know it's not going to get any future updates. that's why I was asking about a DSL chroot. FYI, I just created this page on the wiki explaining how to run both LTSP 5 and 4.2 on the same server. http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Ltsp5SameServerLTSP42
16:31
Lumiere: I've used LTSP 4.2 for my really low-spec thin clients, but I know it's not going to get any future updates. that's why I was asking about a DSL chroot. FYI, I just created this page on the wiki explaining how to run both LTSP 5 and 4.2 on the same server. http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Ltsp5SameServerLTSP42
16:32
<alkisg_>
hick518: I think DSL has more requirements than LTSP 5
16:32
LTSP 5 runs with 64MB RAM, I think DSL needs 128?
16:34
<hick518>
alkisg: DSL website says it'll run on 16.
16:35
<alkisg_>
With no X?
16:36
<hick518>
with X. http://damnsmalllinux.org/wiki/index.php/Minimum_Hardware_Requirements
16:36
also, the 2.4 kernel it uses seems to support some older hardware that the 2.6 kernel does not.
16:39
<alkisg_>
I see 64MB RAM minimum requirement for DSL-N, what's its difference from plain DSL?
16:40
<hick518>
DSL-N uses the 2.6 kernel and has additional GTK packages (and is a larger download)
16:40
<alkisg_>
OK, so something like LTSP5...
16:42
And the 2.4-kernel-DSL, it says 64 recommented / 16 minimum, maybe minimum is with xtiny or something? So, no graphics acceleration?
16:44
<hick518>
There was a long thread on ltsp-discuss: http://marc.info/?l=ltsp-discuss&m=123559541727672&w=2 -- Some folks are having trouble running LTSP 5 on old hardware which is capable of booting DSL and other lightweight distros.
16:45
So my idea was to boot a DSL chroot environment, then connect to an LTSP server. This can be done by actually booting the live cd, but it would be nice to integrate it into LTSP better.
16:45
<alkisg_>
Well, as also mentioned in this list, it could take months to integrade LTSP in a new distro
16:46
And then you'll need sound, ltspfs, maybe localapps... :)
16:46
<hick518>
I'm aware of how long it could take. I just want to get the ball rolling.
16:46
<alkisg_>
But if someone had the time to invest in this, sure, it would be great.
16:46
<stgraber>
you'll also need pulseaudio, a recent Xorg, hal/dbus and ssh >=5.1
16:47
<hick518>
What are the basic requirements? Let's assume no sound or anything right now. Just basic office/internet applications.
16:48
<alkisg_>
If you don't want anything, then you don't want LTSP - plain XDMCP is fine
16:48
<stgraber>
recent X (to work with screen-session.d upstream) that'll then require HAL and that in turns required dbus and udev
16:48
udev means 2.6 too IIRC
16:48
I don't think udev works with 2.4 kernel
16:49
you'll also need a recent SSH if you want the home directory to be mounted and working correctly (used by a few rc.d scripts in ldm)
16:53
<hick518>
Let me take a step back a moment. I'd like to be able to run "normal" LTSP 5, but also run a lightweight version for old clients. I'd love to be able to run: "ltsp-build-client --base /opt/ltsp-dsl --distro damnsmalllinux" and automatically populate /opt/ltsp-dsl with a usable chroot, and get some kernels placed in /var/lib/tftpboot/i386/ltsp-dsl
16:54
Crud, my wife's calling me for dinner. I guess I shouldn't complain that somebody's cooking for me...
16:55
I'll stay signed on so I can see if any more suggestions come rolling in. Thanks for the advice so far.
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16:57
<Lumiere>
this is all why I was suggesting ltsp4... it is designed for older hardware.
16:57
and you don't have to do ssh and all the overhead <_<
17:03
<TheProf>
Hello. I was following that conversation on the mailing list about ltsp 4 vs 5 that hick518 was talking about and it was interesting because I'm in a situation now of having to rebuild my entire building's I.T. from scratch because ltsp 4 wasn't able to provide certain features (such as sound and stuff like OO.org 3) that were now considered mission-critial, but all our hardware was way too old for LTSP 5. Yesterday I sent to rec
17:03
It isn't specifically ltsp 5 I know -- the lack of video support that the newer X has for older hardware is often to blame -- but the end result was the same.
17:04
I now only have 6 computers that work and need to find replacement for all the other ones. So I can relate to the underlying drive. Granted ltsp 5 is pretty rocking when it works :)
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17:21
<vagrantc>
hick518: there isn't much support for cross-distro installs... you'd need tools sufficient to install the chroot of the appropriate distro... i.e. to install a debian/ubuntu chroot, it'll need debootstrap ... no idea what tools are needed for other distros
17:21
and then a way to "switch" your distro.
17:22
hick518: not impossible, but not well supported yet.
17:22
hick518: you'll want to start with the simple case first, installing the same distro in your chroot as the host distro.
17:23
Lumiere: ltsp4 is also designed for older software
17:32
<Lumiere>
vagrantc: I know
17:32
vagrantc: I used it when it first came out :)
17:34* vagrantc was busy developing something that was very similar to ltsp5 called lessdisks
17:45
<Ryan52>
TheProf: did you get it all figured out?
17:45
TheProf: sorry, I was gone for the night..
17:46
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Hello - yes Lumiere was able to help me determine that it was actually the wrong username.
17:46
<Ryan52>
heh. ok.
17:46
<TheProf>
Whenever you put in a non-existing username (there was a typo in the account) it restarts the client.
17:46
No idea why!
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17:47
<TheProf>
But at least that specific issue is now fixed. It was driving me nuts :)
17:47
<Ryan52>
what's it sposed to do?
17:47
all it knows is that the ssh server said "no".
17:48
<TheProf>
I know the previous ltsp would say 'wrong username or password' and let you try again. Currently it actually reboots the thin client.
17:48
Isn't too big of a deal of course -- just different behaviour.
17:49
<Ryan52>
it's not a full reboot.
17:49
it just restarts X.
17:50
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Yes sorry - wrong terminology. It just says 'restarting'
17:50
I was worried I had done something very bad that was causing it to restart :)
17:54
Ryan52: Might I ask another question about how to do something correctly? I want to run a single-line script associated with a certain thin client. I've isolated the think client in lts.conf and I see the example line "LDM_REMOTECMD=myscript". My question is -- where does that script live? /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ldm/rc.d ?
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17:55
<Ryan52>
lolwut?
17:56
wtf is LDM_REMOTECMD?
17:56
umm...
17:56
there's no such thing.
17:56
only the docs mention it, not the code.
17:56
tho.
17:56
<TheProf>
Ryan52: that was cut-n-pasted from lts.conf. :)
17:57
<Ryan52>
I know.
17:57
I can see that.
17:57
one sec.
17:57
gadi added it this summer..
17:57
wonder where he got that idea from.
17:57
anywho.
17:57
there is a way maybe, I think. lemme think for a minute.
17:58
<TheProf>
well it doesn't have to be with that LDM thing.
17:58
<Ryan52>
huh?
17:58
<TheProf>
I just want to execute a "cat" command from the thin client.
17:58
to send some code to an attached printer
17:58
<Ryan52>
on the thin client after sucessful login before starting the remote window manager, right?
17:59
<TheProf>
Ryan52: it would be even before login -- when the thin client boots up. that way
17:59
<Ryan52>
ohhhhh.
17:59
<TheProf>
the printer is accessible to anyone, not just the local user.
17:59
<Ryan52>
then you don't want any ldm thing.
17:59
one sec.
18:00
<TheProf>
Thank you.
18:01
<Ryan52>
RCFILE_00=/path/to/something
18:01
and then put your script in /opt/ltsp/i386/path/to/something
18:01
and then you should be good.
18:01
<TheProf>
Ryan52: perfect! thank you. I will try that now.
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18:27
<hick518>
I'm back. vagrantc, Lumiere, and everybody -- thanks for the advice re. lightweight ltsp 5. I realize there's no quick way to do what I'm asking, but I'm interested in trying to get there. Let me know if can suggest what first steps I can take (besides running LTSP 4.2 for my older clients).
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18:28
<hick518>
by the way, this is Rob Owens from the ltsp-discuss list.
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18:33* Gadi 's ears were burning
18:34
<stgraber>
Gadi: what did you do ?
18:34
<Gadi>
not sure
18:34
reading thru the logs
18:34
:)
18:35
hick518: if a "lightweight" LTSP is what ur after, I would recommend picking a distro, say Ubuntu, and trimming down the initramfs
18:36
I dont think cramming LTSPisms into a lightweight distro makes sense
18:37
<hick518>
Gadi: not sure what that last statement means exactly...
18:37
<Gadi>
well, from what I see in the general discussions, the plan would be to start with something like DSL and patch in the LTSP infrastructure
18:38
<Ryan52>
oh, "fun".
18:38
<Gadi>
going completely under the assumption that DSL does something magic inherently to allow low-end machines to boot
18:38
<hick518>
Gadi: I'm not looking to run LTSP on DSL, but rather use DSL bits as the chroot and connect to a full Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora LTSP server.
18:38
<Gadi>
that is one and the same
18:39
the LTSP infrastructure is what does that
18:39
<hick518>
I've had some P2 machines that won't boot with LTSP 5 on Debian, but will boot DSL off a cd
18:39
<Gadi>
right
18:39
but, that has nothing to do with them being LTSP5
18:39
it has to do with Ubuntu vs. DSL
18:40
<hick518>
I figured that the client just wouldn't boot the Ubuntu stuff, so why not try getting it to boot a DSL chroot.
18:40
<Gadi>
there's nothing in the LTSP5 infrastructure that imposes the minimum hw spec
18:40
why not just netboot DSL?
18:40
DSL is network bootable
18:40
afaik
18:41
answer: because then you would not have the LTSP infrastructure to configure each image individually
18:41
but thats all LTSP does
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18:41
<hick518>
I don't want a DSL user session, just DSL (or DSL-like) "behind the scenes"
18:41
<Gadi>
I understand
18:42
but is it DSL you want or a 2.4 kernel?
18:42
would a 2.6 kernel boot those machines?
18:42
<hick518>
Honestly, I'm not sure. I just know that DSL sometimes works where LTSP 5 on Debian does not.
18:42
<Gadi>
exactly
18:42
<hick518>
I guess I need to do more testing.
18:42
<Gadi>
not testing - isolating the issue
18:42
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Hello. I did as you said but I think I'm missing something. If I manually run the login script from the thin client terminal shell it works fine. I just can't get it to happen automatically.
18:43
<Gadi>
I think it is not LTSP5 failing you
18:43
<TheProf>
My lts.conf says RCFILE_00 = /usr/etc/hp1000-script.sh under the mac address for that machine
18:43
<Gadi>
it is the Ubuntu kernel+initramfs and default services that run
18:43
<Ryan52>
TheProf: r u sure it isn't running?
18:43
it should be :P
18:43
<hick518>
Suppose the 2.4 kernel is the key. Can I configure an Ubuntu/Debian chroot with a 2.4 kernel, and with reduced services?
18:43
<Gadi>
for example, Ubuntu by default uses the -generic kernel
18:43
<TheProf>
Ryan52: the script loads the firmware into the printer. You can tell when it runs because the printer starts up for a second.
18:43
<Gadi>
have you tried the -386 kernel?
18:44
<Ryan52>
mac address wrong?
18:44
<Gadi>
if you want the 2.4 kernel, use LTSP4
18:44
because you will bring along all the negatives of LTSP4 with you if you bring the 2.4 kernel into the mix
18:44
<TheProf>
Ryan52: checking that now
18:45
<hick518>
How would I use the -386 kernel with LTSP 5? Is there an option for that in ltsp-build-client?
18:45
<Gadi>
hick518: you can edit the plugin that installs the kernel and change from -generic to -386
18:45
or there may be a flag
18:45
I would have to check
18:45
its in the LATE_PACKAGES plugin
18:45
<TheProf>
Ryan52: MAC address is correct. adding the line SCREEN_02=shell under the mac address activates the shell on that thin client.
18:46
<Ryan52>
ugh.
18:46
is it +x?
18:46
it might need to be
18:46
<Gadi>
keep in mind, that with LTSP5, we are working with distros upstream
18:46
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Yup. Chmod +x
18:46
<Gadi>
distros are loathe to do too much altering of the default package configs
18:47
<Ryan52>
no clue then, sorry.
18:47
<Gadi>
so, there are always going to be more optimizations possible
18:47
<TheProf>
it runs when I type at the shell /usr/etc/hp1000-script.sh
18:47
hmm..ook
18:48
<hick518>
I'm looking at the late_packages plugin...
18:48
<Gadi>
I think if the community is calling for a solution for PIIs, then we should focus the efforts on a different collection of defaults to kernel+initramfs+services
18:49
personally, I think much of the aggrevation of late has been with Xorg changing faster than the drivers
18:49
so, many drivers have broken
18:49
not only for older video cards but for modern ones
18:49
so, people think that their old stuff is no longer supported
18:50
when in fact, it is simply that the video drivers have not been fixed properly to match the new Xorg
18:50
TheProf: it should be RC_FILE_01
18:51
er
18:51
RCFILE_01
18:51
not _00
18:51
<TheProf>
Gadi: OK I'll change that now.
18:51
<Ryan52>
Gadi: when did that change?
18:51
<Gadi>
we never count from _00
18:51
<Ryan52>
well, maybe freegeek's lts.conf is broken then.
18:51
<Gadi>
everything we do starts with _01
18:51
afaik
18:52* Gadi checks the code
18:52
<Gadi>
ah, nm
18:53
it'll actually do RCFILE_BLAH, too
18:53
because it only looks at the prefix
18:53
for rcfile in $(env | sort | awk -F= '$1 ~ /^RCFILE_/ { print $2 }'); do
18:53
[ -x "$rcfile" ] && "$rcfile" $@
18:53
done
18:53
hehe
18:53
<Ryan52>
cool
18:53
<Gadi>
brb - gotta put the kids to bed
18:53
<TheProf>
Guess that means the number wasn't the issue.
18:54
<hick518>
So in the long run, would it be better to use LTSP 4.2 on these old clients, or will LTSP 5 eventually work on these old clients (I realize it's not the LTSP code that needs fixing).
18:54
<Ryan52>
hick518: imma bet that code is generally getting bigger and slower in everything.
18:54
hick518: so it probably gets worse.
18:55
if that's why.
18:55
why isn't it working?
18:55
:P
18:57
<hick518>
Gadi: I've gotta go be married. Email me if you've got any suggestions/questions for me. I created this page, but I was hoping there was an easier way to run both old and modern thin clients together: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Ltsp5SameServerLTSP42
18:58
This is Rob Owens (formerly) of Bio-Chem. My Bio-Chem email address still works.
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19:18
<TheProf>
Ryan52: alright I fully give up.
19:18
I never liked this HP printer anyways.
19:18
<Ryan52>
:(
19:18
haha
19:19
<TheProf>
it's a windows based firmware. So you need to run a cat command each time the thin client it's attached to boots up.
19:19
to load the firmware into memory.
19:19
I would have liked to use it, but I just can't get this RCFILE thing to work!
19:20
I tried adding a 'echo I'm running' line to the script to see if I could tell if it's running but nothing shows up
19:21
<Ryan52>
weird
19:22
<TheProf>
indeed. That's what happens when the principal goes and buys the cheapest printer available and it ends up having 64k of onboard RAM.
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19:27
<TheProf>
Ryan52: Thanks for all your help. Greatly appreciated.
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20:41
<Ryan52>
ogra: did you ever get that code for the new greeter?
20:43
<stgraber>
Ryan52: it's 3:43 ogra's time
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20:44
<Ryan52>
stgraber: I know. that's why irc clients keep track of messages when you're gone.
20:45
<stgraber>
Ryan52: sure, though I never had much luck with ogra and away messages :)
20:45
<Ryan52>
oh, ok.
20:45* Ryan52 emails
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21:43
<aminus>
hi is anybody here?
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21:44
<Ryan52>
probably.
21:44
<aminus>
im looking into server recommendations for 20-30 thin clients
21:46
<Ryan52>
have you seen the formula?
21:46
!doc
21:46
<ltspbot>
Ryan52: Error: "doc" is not a valid command.
21:46
<Ryan52>
!docs
21:46
<ltspbot>
Ryan52: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
21:46
<Ryan52>
aminus: ^^
21:47
<aminus>
how recent is that documentation?
21:47
<Ryan52>
not completely sure, but I'd guess recentish. :P
21:48
<aminus>
need to build a server thatll be good for those thin clients for educational purposes
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<JeffATL>
i'm trying to find a list of apps that are supplied with k12ltsp
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