IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 14 February 2012   (all times are UTC)

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00:21
<vagrantc>
hmmm... so should the hostname setting plugin source the net-*.conf files directly, or should we append those to /var/cache/ltsp/ltsp_config ?
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00:26
<vagrantc>
catting it to /var/cache/ltsp/ltsp_config worked, although it got overwritten latter somehow ... but the hostname got set correctly.
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00:39
<hydester>
hi, i'm new to LTSP and have tested a thin client and server in a VM without any major issues. is there a way to make an ISO for the client so i can try to run it via a wifi client?
00:40
<vagrantc>
wifi will have very limited performance
00:40
as a thin client
00:40
especially if you have more than one
00:40
<hydester>
so better to just use rdesktop or something?
00:40
<vagrantc>
rdesktop, vnc, nx, spice, etc...
00:41
depends on what your goal really is, though
00:41
if the clients are powerful enough, you might want to try a livecd or something
00:45
<hydester>
just want to use an old laptop P4/2GB RAM using the resources on my ubuntu server
00:46
i traditionally would ssh -X and just do that. wanted something a bit more elegant
00:48
btw, during my testing i did a "sudo reboot" on the client and it reboot the server
00:48
using LTSP 5
00:51
<vagrantc>
hydester: yes, that's because with a thin client, you're logged into the server.
00:52
<hydester>
ah. i thought it was like being in a chroot
00:52
<vagrantc>
hydester: most of the GUI ways you can reboot a server have been disabled, but we can only protect against so much
00:52
<hydester>
i was expecting it to be like a container
00:52
<vagrantc>
it's more like another moniter/mouse/keyboard attached to the server.
00:53
<hydester>
my user account wasn't available to log in until i did a chroot useadd. i guess that made me think it wasn't tied to the same account on the host
00:53
useradd
00:53
<vagrantc>
that's implausible.
00:54
well, unless you're talking about console logins
00:54
i.e. switching to tty1 and trying to log in that way...
00:54
but the graphical login for LTSP thin clients will log into the server, unless you've intentionally configured it otherwise.
00:55
it's essentially a GUI frontend for "ssh -X /etc/X11/Xsession"
00:55
<hydester>
it was the GUI login. i rebooted multiple times. then i added the use and then remade the image and rebooted and it was fine. but it is possible i missed something. i'll try it again tomorrow
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00:57
<vagrantc>
remaking the image likely triggered something else.
00:57
most likely your ip address had changed and it failed to very the ssh host keys until you remade tthe image
00:57
meh. my typing is off tonight...
00:57
verify the ssh host keys
00:58
hydester: i bet if you removed the user from the chroot and remade the image it would work.
00:59
<hydester>
ok, will try that tomorrow. i'd like to do more with LTSP
00:59
<vagrantc>
it's not for all uses, but it's hopefully useful to many :)
01:00
<hydester>
i found it while looking for a citrix thinclient. wanted to PXE boot to a a preconfigured citrix client
01:00
<vagrantc>
should be possible, although citrix support isn't shipped by default, since it's not free software
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01:17
<vagrantc>
hah.
01:17
ldm's check for new NBD images is messing with me.
01:23
<stgraber>
:)
01:25
<vagrantc>
i just went ahead and rm'ed it.
01:25
so, tested NBD on debian for the first time in ages.
01:25
seems to work fine with the new stuff, too.
01:26
although i'll grumble a bit about how ltsp-update-image misbehaves ... suppose i should just ship a default configuration file on debian that has "exit 0" at the top and issues a warning or something.
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01:55
<vagrantc>
ltsp-update-image resets the update-kernels.conf
02:02
and manually re-implements update-kernels?
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04:07
<alkisg>
Good morning
04:08
vagrantc: there can only be one net-*.conf, right?
04:08
And it should probably be sourced before lts.conf, to allow lts.conf to override it
04:13
vagrantc: could you check which of the scripts I put to init-ltsp.d/Ubuntu are suitable for Debian too?
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04:31
<alkisg>
vagrantc: can I completely remove nfs-bottom/ltsp too? Do you still need it for some reason?
05:13
Ouch, ltsp-init-common.configure_resolver() duplicates and overwrites 09-hostname and 10-resolv-conf.
05:14
At some point, the sooner the better, we need to move all the ltsp-init-common functions to init-ltsp.d scripts
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05:31
<cyberorg>
ok, will let you know when we switch, will work on it for next release
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06:20
<alkisg>
Is any distro still using usplash?
06:23
vagrantc, stgraber: now that we use init-ltsp.d, we should remove ltsp-setup completely, right?
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06:45* alkisg removed ltsp-setup from his branch, will commit when he hears feedback about it...
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06:54
<alkisg>
The "set_lts_var" vs "ltsp_config_env" file handling is buggy
06:54
So I've lost SCREEN_07=ldm as the default var
06:55
s/var/screen
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07:55
<vagrantc>
alkisg: dunno
07:55
<alkisg>
vagrantc: about which one?
07:55
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i guess we could merge all of ltsp-client-setup into init-ltsp.d
07:56
<alkisg>
We only have 2 lines not merged yet
07:56
The rc files and another one, don't remember
07:56
The rcfiles can go to init-client-core
07:56
But we can't call all the others, like configure_resolv etc twice
07:57
Those are the ones we don't have in init-ltsp.d yet:
07:57
run_rcfiles || true
07:57
configure_serial_mouse || true
07:57
All the other ones are duplicates now, they should be removed
07:57
So I think it's best to remove ltsp-setup completely
07:57
<vagrantc>
alkisg: re: nfs-bottom/ltsp the only reason to keep it is if i wanted to maintain the LTSP_RW_* which seems unmanageable
07:57
<alkisg>
That's how I'm testing now, and it works fine
07:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i also tested NBD on debian for the first time in a long while, worked pretty well!
07:58
<alkisg>
vagrantc: ok, but at least all the other stuff should go away from there, e.g. dns and hostname handling
07:58
Cool!
07:58
<vagrantc>
other than my long-standing grumbles with ltsp-update-image ... though i fixed at least one of those.
07:59
<alkisg>
Yeah we need to rework the configuration there too
07:59
<vagrantc>
alkisg: the new system pretty much assumes a writeable /
07:59
it just blindly overwrites configuration files...
07:59
<alkisg>
For ltsp-update-image, ltsp-update-kernels, ltsp_config.d and all, it's too messy now
07:59
vagrantc: what files that we didn't write before?
08:00
<vagrantc>
i.e. /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp/update-kernels.conf just gets overwritten.
08:00
so when ltsp-update-image had the wrong values for BOOTPROMPT_OPTIONS, meh.
08:00
<alkisg>
Ah, you mean the ltsp-update-image system, I thought you were talking about the new init-ltsp.d system
08:00
<vagrantc>
no, no, ltsp-update-image
08:00
<alkisg>
I haven't looked into that yet... it's too messy to tackle quickly
08:01
It needs a bit of thought + redesign
08:01
So anyway, do you think any other distros are using ltsp-setup?
08:01
Opensuse uses a "kiwi-ltsp-setup", and I haven't found any other mentions of "ltsp-setup" in the sources...
08:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: with init-ltsp, there are several things that won't easily work with LTSP_RW*
08:02
alkisg: not any distros that communicate much, anyways.
08:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc: I do think it'll be much easier if we assume a writeable root there, so forget bind-mounts completely..
08:02
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'm willing to go there ... although i haven't tested backportability with that yet.
08:03
<alkisg>
The bad thing is that we don't have much time to clean all this up, because of precise feature freeze :(
08:03
<vagrantc>
alkisg: oh, the other problem with that was /var/cache/apt/*.bin was eating 30MB+
08:03
<alkisg>
?
08:03
On boot?
08:03
<vagrantc>
yes
08:03
<alkisg>
Why did that get there?
08:04
Ah, check some of the init-ltsp.d/Ubuntu scripts
08:04
<vagrantc>
haven't figured it out yet. perhaps some cron thing.
08:04
<alkisg>
Like the ones that disable services on boot
08:04
E.g. unattended-upgrades etc
08:04
Let me see my /cow size on boot...
08:05
(So, would you agree if I removed ltsp-setup?)
08:05
<vagrantc>
yeah, i've just been using common
08:05
ltsp-setup ... hmmm...
08:05
<alkisg>
Currently we do duplicate calls
08:05
So something does need to be done
08:05
<vagrantc>
the RC_FILE_NN support would be nice to port, or could maybe be moved to ltsp-core
08:05
<alkisg>
We can also just rename it to INIT_FILES :)
08:06
And run it in init-ltsp.d :D
08:06
<vagrantc>
well, it's the sort of thing that should probably run later that init-ltsp
08:06
<alkisg>
But yeah in ltsp-client-core it would be more backwards compatible
08:07
<vagrantc>
it might start a daemon or something, for exxample
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08:08
<alkisg>
vagrantc: df -h ==>
08:08
tmpfs 572k /cow
08:08
And 788K for /run
08:09
<vagrantc>
yeah, that's about what i had, minus the /var/cache/apt stuff
08:09
less in /run, actually
08:09
anyways, unconsciousness calls :)
08:09
<alkisg>
I have a fat client setup
08:09
vagrantc: so I'm continuing tests without ltsp-setup
08:09
Good night :)
08:10
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'm fairly sure what i did to ltsp-update-image won't break it, but if you could test, that would be good :)
08:10
<alkisg>
Sure, I'll go there after I have a client that boots to ldm :)
08:10
So after you wake up :)
08:14
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you'll need to add sensigs protection to nbd-proxy
08:14
and it didn't hurt to have protections for both, really.
08:15
<alkisg>
Ah, ok, I'll check that
08:16
<vagrantc>
and [ -z "$HOSTNAME" ] doesn't handle when HOSTNAME='(none)' very well.
08:17
<alkisg>
vagrantc: hostname gets set from net-*.conf
08:17
So it's either HOSTNAME=soemthing, or HOSTNAME=
08:17
We don't read it from the kernel anymore
08:17
<vagrantc>
hm.
08:18
ok, i guess.
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09:52
<itomas>
hi
09:52
can anyone help with a problem in an LTSP setup with nbd_server
09:53
when booting the thin client it always appears the error message, Could not open exported file .... Permission denied
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11:36
<xsl>
hello all.
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11:43
<itomas>
anyone help on error message "Could not boot from filename pxelinux.0" "Permission denied"
11:43
?
11:48
<xsl>
itomas: is that from the regular i386 image?
11:49
<itomas>
yes
11:49
<xsl>
if so, do a ls -l /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0
11:49
<itomas>
i just followed the steps in LtspQuickInstall
11:49
currently is 777 as i tried modifying the permissions for
11:50
<xsl>
if should be 644
11:50
<itomas>
i'll try
11:51
tell u in a second
11:51
<xsl>
and check also the /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default
11:51
<itomas>
what should the permissions be for that file, currently is also 777
11:52
should it be 644 too?
11:52
<xsl>
644
11:52
<itomas>
thx
11:52
<xsl>
i have the feeling you been playing with permissions :P
11:52
<itomas>
yes, :P as it always gave me that error i thought it could be a matter of permissions
11:52
but doesn't seem
11:52
i'll try changing them and inform about
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11:55
<itomas>
didn't work, changing pxelinux.0 and pxelinux.cfg/default permissions just threw the same message
11:58
<xsl>
show me the permissions of your /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/
11:58
maybe the kernel file needs permissions
11:59
use pastebin plz
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12:14
<itomas>
permission denied
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12:17
<alkisg>
itomas: paste your /etc/default/tftpd-hpa
12:17
!tftp
12:17
<ltsp>
alkisg: tftp: Here's a page to help you troubleshoot TFTP problems in Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Troubleshooting/TFTP
12:18
<alkisg>
E.g. you may be missing the "--secure" option
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12:20
<itomas>
yeah, that was it i was missing the --secure option, thx a lot, i messed up the tftp configuration, sorry :P
12:21
<xsl>
sorry i could not be more of an assistance :D (still a bit new to ltsp)
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12:24
<itomas>
xsl:don't worry thx again for your cooperation
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12:34
<xsl>
bbl guys
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12:42
<alkisg>
mgariepy: hi, do you mind if the new way to activate nbd-proxy is to pass NBDCLIENT=nbd-proxy-wrapper in the kernel command line, instead of the old nbd_proxy=true ?
12:42
That will make the nbd initramfs script call /sbin/nbd-proxy-wrapper, which will be a shell script which will call nbd-proxy and nbd-client.
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12:43
<alkisg>
(also if you can think of a better name than nbd-proxy-wrapper... e.g. nbdproxy or nbd-proxy.sh?)
12:44
Finally, if that's all you ever use nbd-proxy for, we may as well skip the wrapper, and process the command line + call nbd-client from within the C source code. But I guess that cannot be done soon enough for the feature freeze.
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13:18
<mgariepy>
good morning everyone
13:22
<alkisg>
Good morning mgariepy, when you have some time please look above for some nbd-proxy questions
13:23
<mgariepy>
for the wrapper i don't mind as long as it can be enabled with the cmdline ;)
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13:28
<alkisg>
Cool, will do that today
13:30
<mgariepy>
great thanks
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14:04
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg?
14:05
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: hey
14:05
<Hyperbyte>
http://twitgoo.com/5ewun9
14:05
Can you tell me what could cause a thin client to hang at that point?
14:05
It's just one client, out of several
14:06
After these messages in the picture, the screen turns black and then nothing
14:06
Pressing ctrl+alt+f1 brings the messages back
14:06
<alkisg>
!quiet-splash
14:06
<ltsp>
alkisg: quiet-splash: to disable the splash screen in Ubuntu, in order to see any boot error messages, run `sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default` and remove quiet splash .
14:06
<alkisg>
That also shows the kernel messages
14:07
<Hyperbyte>
Good idea. One moment.
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14:11
<Hyperbyte>
New errors
14:11
Although
14:11
No errors
14:11
Just new information on where it hangs exactly
14:11
http://twitgoo.com/5ewutt
14:12
<stgraber>
alkisg: nobody uses usplash anymore
14:13
<alkisg>
I'll put it in the TODOs to remove it
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14:13
<alkisg>
stgraber: also, we're affected by this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nbd/+bug/696435
14:14
We can work around that too, with rootdelay=1, but it'd be nice if we could solve it properl
14:14
y
14:14
<LuizAngioletti>
Hey folks! I'm trying to convince my coworkers that LTSP is the good idea I think it is. But I'd like to do that with some papers and research results. Can anyone point me to something? I've search and found some four papers...
14:14
I'd like some more.
14:15
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, LTSP is free. Get some PC or laptop which is moderately powerful, and make a demo for your co-workers. :)
14:16
<stgraber>
alkisg: and that's only with the new nbd I guess? I don't remember ever seeing the boot get stuck for 30s in initramfs
14:16
<alkisg>
stgraber: yup :(
14:17
<stgraber>
alkisg: ok, I won't have time to look into it by Feature Freeze, so use the workaround for now
14:17
<alkisg>
ok
14:17
By tonight I think it'll be mostly working :)
14:18
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, I introduced LTSP here by switching one person over to a test LTSP environment. :)
14:18
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: I realize that. They already have some labs set up, but complaint about server delay and all. I'd like to see some more recent specs for server and lab size... The LTSP docs aren't that up to date on that matter.
14:19
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, server delay how? LTSP shouldn't have any noticable delay, unless you have insanely crappy hardware.
14:19
<LuizAngioletti>
As I'm at a University, the thing I think the most are papers, white papers, descriptive success cases...
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14:19
<alkisg>
!adding-modules
14:19
<ltsp>
alkisg: adding-modules: If your clients won't boot with messages like 'eth0: link not ready', maybe you're missing an initramfs-module: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AddingModules
14:19
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: ^
14:19
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, I have ten identical clients
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14:19
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: errr which ubuntu version?
14:19
<Hyperbyte>
And this one worked fine until a few hours ago...
14:19
11.04
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14:19
<alkisg>
Ah yeah that one does have the r8169 module there
14:20
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: And what is the minimum required hardware, and what's the lab size you have there?
14:20
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: poweroff the client, unplug the power, press the power button so that static electricitly goes away, press the network cable a bit, and restart the client
14:20
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: And what is the kind of applicantion you use?
14:21
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, we're a commercial company... so different budget, you can't compare my hardware situation to school labs.
14:21
<alkisg>
LuizAngioletti: what are your client specs? RAM?
14:23* alkisg testifies that he can't compare his school labs with Hyperbyte's servers. #@($*&#@( :)
14:23
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte's servers could easily serve 10 school labs here...
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14:31
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: can you tell if there is any university behind the project?
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14:32
<alkisg>
You mean sponsoring the ltsp development? Not that I know of...
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14:32
<mmetzger>
Someone just switched from sunrays to LTSP I think...
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14:33
<Hyperbyte>
Yay
14:35
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: I'll be back with some more specifics about my problem. =)
14:36
<alkisg>
LuizAngioletti: np, the channel will always be here :)
14:36
Hyperbyte: welcome!! :D
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14:42
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: I forgot to ask... what are the server specs?
14:42
<alkisg>
For 12 pcs any recent pc will do. Dual core, 3 gb ram, gigabit nic.
14:43
Double the specs for your case
14:47
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: So... If I already have that... and the client's specs I told you I have (256MB-512MB RAM, and some pentiums)... and I still experience delays... the problem is left to be on network hardware...
14:47
<alkisg>
LuizAngioletti: or your lts.conf settings, you didn't yet answer my question about LDM_DIRECTX
14:47
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: I didn't realize it was for me. =)
14:49
alkisg: just a sec.. =)
14:50
<Hyperbyte>
Your demo environment will only have to be for one or two PC's of course, so you don't need such beefy hardware. :) And it'll help you learn more about LTSP, such as why LDM_DIRECTX=True increases responsiveness. ;-)
14:50
alkisg, thin client works again. I guess the longer poweroff helped... either that, or me repatching all the network cables it runs through.
14:55
Now I just need _UsUrPeR_
15:00
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: Although I haven't seen the production machines, I think I can safely assume that the parameter is not set. Why is it that relevant?
15:00
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, by default LTSP encrypts all it's network traffic
15:00
It is very safe & secure. But, that encryption eats a lot of computing power plus causes network latency.
15:00
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: which means huge traffic overload... =/
15:00
<alkisg>
!directx
15:00
<ltsp>
alkisg: directx: If you want to turn off encryption to the workstation, which will speed up performance at the cost of security, you need to specify LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file. Type !docs in IRC to get a link to the current documentation
15:01
<Hyperbyte>
If your network is secure enough, and you trust your users enough that they don't sniff out network traffic, you can turn the encryption off.
15:01
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: And if I don't... I'd have to improve server and network hardware. =/
15:01
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, why is LDM_DIRECTX not enabled by default? It's not like it'll be an issue for most people.
15:02
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: I think because those linux developers are usually security freaks :P
15:02
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: Are you the LTSP Oracle? =)
15:02
<alkisg>
Nah, I'm just a poor lonesome teacher
15:02
<Hyperbyte>
In fact, I can't imagine any user case where someone a) uses hubs instead of switches so network sniffing is an issue, and b) has users advanced enough to make sense of remote X traffic
15:02
!alkisg
15:02
<ltsp>
Hyperbyte: alkisg: The LTSP oracle. Our beacon of hope in the world of LTSP. With the guidance of this divine emperor, we shall prevail.
15:02
<Hyperbyte>
He's the oracle.
15:03
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: Some say otherwise... =)
15:03
Thx a lot, anyway.
15:03
<mmetzger>
Switches aren't the end all for stopping sniffing :)
15:04
<Hyperbyte>
mmetzger, with thin clients that send huge amounts of network traffic? Sure they are.
15:05
Either way - let's start a poll. Who here hasn't got LDM_DIRECTX=True in their lts.conf?
15:05
Except for LuizAngioletti. =)
15:05* mmetzger raises hand
15:05
<Hyperbyte>
mmetzger, why?
15:05
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte, alkisg, I need a tip. =) How would I measure the performance before and after setting that parameterß
15:05
?
15:05
<mmetzger>
Specifically due to security, and I have fairly powerful clients on a ridiculously over speced server
15:06
But the people using mine *are* security guys...
15:06
Under normal circumstances I do agree
15:06
<LuizAngioletti>
mmetzger: so your problem is quite the opposite of mine... I have ridiculously old clients and low spec'ed servers... =P
15:07
<Hyperbyte>
mmetzger, so, since everybody who comes in here gets told to enable LDM_DIRECTX, it'd make more sense to disable it by default, and give people like you, where I agree it might be useful, the option to enable it
15:07* Hyperbyte coughs
15:07
<Hyperbyte>
I have spoken.
15:08
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: if you can convince vagrantc, I think that change can go upstream :D
15:08
<mmetzger>
Hyperbyte: Sounds good to me :)
15:09
<LuizAngioletti>
alkisg: Do you know of any inciative happening with LTSP in Brazil?
15:09
<Hyperbyte>
And let's call it LDM_ENCRYPTION or something. :)
15:10
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: Now I'm confused. =/ Am I suposed to have the parameter set or not --- for low traffic?
15:10
<alkisg>
X_ENCRYPTION
15:10
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, type the words 'LTSP' and 'Brazil' in Google. :)
15:10
<alkisg>
LuizAngioletti: I think Brazil does use a lot of ltsp and thin clients, but again no links
15:10
<mmetzger>
LuizAngioletti: Yes, you should have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf
15:10
<alkisg>
Yeah, what Hyperbyte said
15:11
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: The only reliable link was 404. =P
15:11
<Hyperbyte>
I saw two success stories when I googled for that.
15:11
LuizAngioletti, really?
15:11
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: Yeah, it would be something like ltsp-br.org...
15:11
<Hyperbyte>
I just checked - the first two results are success stories.
15:11
Make sure you use www.google.com
15:11
Or better
15:11
http://archive09.linux.com/feature/120292.html
15:12
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/ltsp/index.php?title=Ltsp_SuccessStories#Far.C3.B3is_do_Saber_em_Curitiba_com_LTSP.2C_Brasil
15:12
There
15:12
First two results.
15:12
There's much more, if you use www.google.com (com!)
15:12
<LuizAngioletti>
You're right. I was looking for the brazilian country name, with an S: Brasil.
15:12
<Hyperbyte>
Ah. :)
15:12
<LuizAngioletti>
And than it points to some ltsp-br.org, wich is 404.
15:13
http://www.ltsp-br.org/
15:13
check. =P
15:15* mmetzger bangs head on table for a minute and fixes his iptables setup
15:16
<Hyperbyte>
mmetzger, careful!
15:16
That's not good for the table.
15:16
<mmetzger>
It's a cheap ikea table - I'm not that worried
15:17
<Hyperbyte>
First you bang on the table, now you're calling it cheap... you should be nicer to it!
15:18
<mmetzger>
Probably so - otherwise one of these days it will break and dump my monitor & such on the floor
15:19
<LuizAngioletti>
And those are not cheap.
15:20
Hyperbyte: I'm sorry for my dumbness... but.. If I don't have the LDM_DIRECTX=True set, then I don't have encription working, right?
15:20
<Hyperbyte>
LuizAngioletti, wrong!
15:20
See
15:20
!lts.conf
15:20
<ltsp>
Hyperbyte: lts.conf: http://manpages.ubuntu.com/lts.conf
15:20
<LuizAngioletti>
Hyperbyte: Thx. +D
15:20
<Hyperbyte>
Check "LDM_DIRECTX"
15:20
Default value is "False"
15:21
So if you don't explicitly set it to something other than the default, it'll be the default.
15:21
The name is a bit confusing
15:21
By default, LDM traffic is going via encryption, to X
15:21
<mmetzger>
LuizAngioletti: Think of the LDM_DIRECTX as being the equivalent of "ssh -X" on a normal client - you tunnel the X connectivity over SSH instead of direct to the listening port.
15:21
<Hyperbyte>
If you want to send LDM traffic directly to X, you set LDM_DIRECTX=True
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15:22
<Hyperbyte>
So setting LDM_DIRECTX=True bypasses the encryption part.
15:22
<LuizAngioletti>
mmetzger, Hyperbyte : got it. =D
15:23
<mmetzger>
note to self - when using the REDIRECT iptables target on an LTSP box, make sure the SSH port isn't redirected...
15:23* Hyperbyte smacks mmetzger!
15:24
<mmetzger>
Hey, it made for interesting troubleshooting... and the reason for the table being injured.
15:25
<Hyperbyte>
No, the reason for the table being injured is your absense of anger management. :P
15:25
<LuizAngioletti>
May I ask where are you from?
15:25
<Hyperbyte>
<- Netherlands
15:25
<LuizAngioletti>
<- Brazil =P
15:26
<mmetzger>
<- Land of broken tables
15:31
<LuizAngioletti>
mmetzger: does it have a gps location?
15:31
=P
15:31
<mmetzger>
Heh - sorry, was troubleshooting something - Texas
15:36
<LuizAngioletti>
hum...
15:38
Folks, I'll probably be around frequently now. =/ I'm thinking about a project with LTSP.... so I'll surely need your wisdom. But now, I have to go. Have a nice day/night =)
15:40
<mmetzger>
Bye LuizAngioletti
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17:20
<stgraber>
alkisg: gah, forgot to update the build score on the new snapshot ... done now, should be built in a few minutes
17:20
<alkisg>
OK, no hurries, I just wanted this in the ppa because it boots, in case some other person watching the mailing list wanted to test
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17:24
<alkisg>
stgraber: I want to create an nbd-proxy-wrapper script, to be placed in the initramfs /sbin. To enable nbd proxy, one would use "NBD_CLIENT=nbd-client-wrapper" in the kernel command line. Question: should I put that to ltsp-trunk/nbd-proxy/nbd-proxy-wrapper, or in ltsp-trunk/client/nbd-proxy-wrapper?
17:25
(erm typo in the cmdline, it's NBDCLIENT=nbd-proxy-wrapper)
17:26
<stgraber>
alkisg: considering the old nbd-proxy activation code was in our initramfs scripts, I guess ltsp-trunk/client/nbd-proxy-wrapper makes sense
17:26
alkisg: the idea is hat the nbd-proxy directory might be moved to a separate package at some point as it's also useful outside of LTSP
17:26
*that
17:27
<alkisg>
stgraber: a good idea, better put it to nbd-proxy/ then, as it's only used by that package
17:27
And if sometime later nbd-proxy can handle being an NBDCLIENT wrapper by itself, the wrapper script can be deleted
17:28
(it's just a matter of command line parsing)
17:28
<stgraber>
hmm, indeed, thinking of it nbd-proxy/ makes sense then as someone can use the wrapper without LTSP to boot a machine using nbd
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17:28
<stgraber>
yep, put it in nbd-proxy then
17:30
<alkisg>
OK, I'll put it in src/
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17:44
<alkisg>
mgariepy: does nbd-proxy support name-based exports? What parameters should be passed to it if the user uses a name-based export without specifying a port, i.e. using the default 10809?
17:45
(or, stgraber ^)
17:49
<stgraber>
alkisg: it's supposed to, I don't know the parameters though
17:50
<alkisg>
OK, I'll make a sample script and leave the testing up to mgariepy
17:50
I'll assume that it only uses the port and doesn't care about the parameters
17:50
I.e. it only does translation
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17:58
<hughessd>
hey all, is there any way to disable the keyring popup for each user?
17:59
en masse, not one by one....
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18:02
<hughessd>
there's some mention of keyrings here: http://irclogs.ltsp.org/?d=2011-03-30
18:02
but no one mentions what worked...
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18:03
<alkisg>
stgraber: I pushed the nbd-client-proxy script, but a packaging change is needed:
18:03
ltsp-client-core.install:nbd-proxy/src/nbd-client-proxy usr/sbin
18:03
mgariepy: whenever you want to test, either copy that file manually, or ask stgraber to generate another package. But do have a look at the script, I wasn't sure if the parameters were correct or not...
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18:42
<[GuS]>
knipwim: Hi!
18:43
I have a small doub... if i need to install a video card driver, must be in the chroot environment? (of LTSP)?
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18:46
<mmetzger>
[GuS]: For a client machine? Possibly, though you may also be able to do it via the Module options in the lts.conf file if the module is already present.
18:49
<[GuS]>
mmetzger: i know, but the driver should exist in the chroot?
18:50
Example, i have installed nouveau in the chroot and when i use XSERVER = nouveau does not work, it says that cannot find it
18:52
<mmetzger>
Is the module actually present?
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19:03
<knipwim>
[GuS]: yes, the driver should be in the client chroot
19:04
<[GuS]>
knipwim: ok, i was not wrong then... i dont know why does not work
19:07
<knipwim>
[GuS]: you have it compiled in the client kernel?
19:07
<[GuS]>
knipwim: I think... is the nouveau driver.
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19:08* [GuS] checking...
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19:09alkisg1 is now known as alkisg
19:11
<stgraber>
alkisg, vagrantc: btw, I switched to freerdp-x11 instead of rdesktop as the default for 12.04's ltsp
19:11
<alkisg>
Sounds good
19:12
<stgraber>
I believe all of rdesktop's features are now in freerdp-x11
19:12
the dependency also allows for someone to replace it by rdesktop if needed
19:13
<vagrantc>
i.e. freerdp-x11 | rdesktop ?
19:14
i'll make the switch as well
19:15
<alkisg>
So, known ltsp/nbd problems for now: (1) dynamically generate upstart jobs for clean nbd disconnection on shutdown, (2) use nbd-server's conf.d, (3) check if we should delete more services, (4) optimize the ltsp-update-image/kernels configuration handling. Anything else?
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19:18
<alkisg>
I think we should completely remove the nbd port assignments, and ship an ltsp-update-kernels.conf with ltsp-client-core, which will contain the bootprompt options
19:18
<vagrantc>
oooh... and then people can edit it the way they're supposed to
19:19
and conffile updates, which not purty, are the right thing to do.
19:19
and upgrades, if they haven't changed anything, will just work.
19:19
alkisg++
19:23
alkisg: er, update-kernels.conf
19:24
ltsp-update-kernels.conf was the server-side part...
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19:24
<vagrantc>
that whole infrastructure is a mess.
19:24
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yup... although it doesn't have to be called "update-kernels.conf", it can be called "kernel-options.conf"
19:24
<vagrantc>
should probably remove all the obscure architectures and rewrite it a bit.
19:24
alkisg: i just went with the convention of /etc/ltsp/NAME_OF_SCRIPT_USING_IT.conf
19:25
<alkisg>
Ah, ok, that's a good convention
19:26
It'd be nice to have an ltsp-common.conf as well, containing the ARCH... and ltsp-common-functions would source ltsp-common and $0.conf...
19:27
<vagrantc>
yes, it would be nice to move towards something with common configuration files...
19:27
<alkisg>
Btw just booted a fat client in 100mbps lan... loaded the kernel in 8 secs, finished init-ltsp.d in 16, reached ldm in 33, finished login in 1 minute.
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19:27
<alkisg>
The login needs the most work in precise, and I don't think we have control over that. Will try with nfs another day.
19:28
Ouch resolv conf seems still broken
19:32
Ah my bad, using ipappend 3...
19:33
If we don't have any dns server at all, is it ok if we fall back to the ltsp server?
19:35
<vagrantc>
as a nameserver?
19:37
<alkisg>
Yes, it's not very unusual to have a nameserver running in the ltsp server... i think ubuntu also uses dnsmasq as a caching dns server by default nowadays
19:38
Yes, with DNS_SERVER=xx in lts.conf it worked fine
19:46
<vagrantc>
i guess if there is no nameserver configured, it typically responds rather quickly
19:47
though it will generate needless traffic to the server in that case
19:47
not a lot, probably
19:59
<alkisg>
Hm or I could just check if the port is open before defaulting to that
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20:12
<alkisg>
Heh, using NFS_HOME cut the login time in half. The sftp-server takes a lot of cpu time.
20:14* vagrantc has been experiencing problems with newer versions of sshfs only working if you have ownership of the dir
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20:33
<alkisg>
vagrantc: would you really and absolutely object to ssh.c calculating the password hash for the current user and storing it to /etc/passwd, as a non-default lts.conf option?
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20:37
<vagrantc>
alkisg: as a non-default option, i guess that's fine.
20:38
alkisg: it should get purged as soon as the user logs out, of course.
20:38
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, and, if possible, if it's been changed, the new hash to be transferred to the server :D
20:38
<vagrantc>
would certainly make fatclients/thinclients work better.
20:38
alkisg: that sounds like a dangerous game...
20:38
<alkisg>
(nah that'll need something with suid, it's not for the masses :D)
20:39
Well, a user can change his password
20:39
And we do have an ssh channel authenticated with the user account
20:39
<vagrantc>
sure... but transparently proxying that to the server, that's error prone
20:39
<alkisg>
The problem is that we don't have the new passoword, and that passwd doesn't accept a hash
20:39
<vagrantc>
exactly.
20:40
<alkisg>
So if passwd had a --accept-hash-from-stdin parameter, it would be much better than now, where fat client users have to login to the server to change their passwords
20:40
<vagrantc>
but i can see that it would improve fatclients greatly... it's one of the blockers for me to deploy fatclients is screensaver handling.
20:41
<alkisg>
I committed code to disable locking by default, but it's not a good solution
20:41
...and it's only for gnome
20:41
<vagrantc>
disabling it is not what i need, i need it to work
20:41
i mean, disabling it solves one problem
20:42
but not the functionality problem of needing a screen locker.
20:42
<alkisg>
Yeah... let's hope Scotty finishes his libpam_ssh implementation, so that we can switch to that + lightdm
20:42
<vagrantc>
at one hackfest a year...
20:42
<alkisg>
You can override the screen locker with remoteapps
20:42
/usr/local/bin/screensaver, which execs remoteapps "$@"
20:42
<vagrantc>
yeah, but then running a screen locker as a remote app is sub-optimal as well.
20:43
although as long as it's blank mode, not a big deal.
20:43
<alkisg>
so, remoteapps "blackscreensaver" , not "$@" :D
20:44
chpasswd can create a hash from stdin
20:44
I can call that from ssh.c, so that it uses the normal crypt functions for the system
20:45
<vagrantc>
but how do you catch all the ways it might get updated?
20:45
<alkisg>
Check if "STORE_HASH_TO_PASSWD=true", and save it to passwd on login
20:45
I don't care how it gets updated
20:45
<vagrantc>
sure.
20:45
<alkisg>
If I could, I would check on logout
20:45
But I can't transfer the hash without a suid program
20:46
It won't be difficult to write one, that only allows setting the password for the current user
20:46
In C, scripts can't be setuid
20:46
But all that is a quick and dirty solution to a problem that should be best be solved in another way
20:49
<Hyperbyte>
vagrantc! Hi!
20:49
I have a proposal! I made it earlier to alkisg, and he basically agrees it's a good idea, he just wants me to bug you about it.
20:49
<vagrantc>
hah
20:49
<alkisg>
Hahaha not with that wording though :P
20:49
<Hyperbyte>
A lot of people come in here, asking about LTSP and why it's performing slow
20:50
And we tell them to put LDM_DIRECTX=True in lts.conf
20:50
Which fixes that
20:50* vagrantc stares at toes
20:50
<Hyperbyte>
And even those who don't ask how to improve speed, we still advise to put that in lts.conf
20:50
So my proposal comes down to this
20:51
1. Rename LDM_DIRECTX to X_ENCRYPTION (which also reverses it's meaning, but does make it a lot more clear imvho)
20:51
2. Turn off encryption by default
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20:52
<||cw>
but then you get the security whiners up in arms because it's plain text on the wire
20:53
<vagrantc>
Hyperbyte: no problem with 1, really.
20:53
Hyperbyte: i have a hard time with 2.
20:53
secure by default, disable if people think they need to.
20:53
<Hyperbyte>
||cw, well, of course we'd leave a note in lts.conf
20:54
; Enable X encryption for extra security if needed
20:54
X_ENCRYPTION=False
20:54
<vagrantc>
then we'd also have to set configuration compatibility variables...
20:54
<Hyperbyte>
Configuration compatibility variables?
20:54
<||cw>
but the whole point is that people aren't reading the lts.conf notes in the first place?
20:55
<alkisg>
We could have a package named "ltsp-server-fast-but-insecure" with all the defaults for people with hardware so old that are not even able to care about security :D
20:55
<vagrantc>
i.e. if LDM_DIRECTX=True ; then X_ENCRYPTION=False
20:55
<Hyperbyte>
||cw, well, I guess the real point is that probably 95% of the LTSP users run without encryption, and maybe 5% do it with
20:55
To me, it makes sense to choose the most common option as default.
20:56
Plus, I believe it greatly improves the "first impression" people get LTSP. My first impression was that it was painfully slow, until I found out about the encryption
20:56
*get +from+ LTSP
20:56
<alkisg>
And people that care about security usually do read the notes. The problem is that they whine a lot more than the other 95% :D
20:57
<Hyperbyte>
If you're into security, you're gonna find out about the inner-workings of LTSP, and you're gonna run into the encryption option.
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20:57
<alkisg>
Another idea is to have a debconf option about it, in a dialog
20:58
<||cw>
I guess if the notes/package descriptions say something "defaults assume a secure, private lan, read the docs if this is not your use case"
20:59* alkisg thinks that even if everybody here agreed, someone else would come in the future and complain about it
20:59
<Hyperbyte>
Well the point is: it's not about "someone else"
21:00
If you look at IRC logs, there's about 3 people on average each month who say LTSP is slow and get advised to turn off encryption, which makes them happy again.
21:01
<||cw>
well, you can't fix stupid.
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21:01
<Hyperbyte>
No, but we can adjust our default config to be the most desirable config for the average user. :)
21:02
<alkisg>
And yet another idea would be to automatically set LDM_DIRECTX=True for low-end hardware, and =False for newer hardware
21:03
...and of course if set in lts.conf, no autodetection would happen
21:03
If one has < 1 GHz cpu, I don't believe he'd ever want to run ltsp with ldm_directx=false, even if he was security-sensitive
21:04
<Hyperbyte>
I have a 4ghz six-core CPU in my server and I still feel the difference with LDM_DIRECTX=True - it 'fixed' YouTube for me. :)
21:05
<alkisg>
The detection would happen client-side
21:06
<vagrantc>
it would be nice if LDM could also select it on a per-session basis
21:07
i.e. guestlogins would probably be best without encryption, but logins on our username servers should.
21:07
dunno if others use multiple servers with guest servers and account servers...
21:07
but i do
21:07
<Hyperbyte>
:o!
21:07
<alkisg>
vagrantc: (unrelated) can't you do the bind-mounts from init-ltsp.d? I.e. even if you want to keep them, can't you still drop nfs-bottom/ltsp ?
21:08
<Hyperbyte>
Like... don't encrypt regular users, but encrypt administrators.
21:08
<vagrantc>
alkisg: probably could do them, it's just many of the init-ltsp.d assume writeability in places that are hard to do as bind mounts.
21:09
Hyperbyte: yes, dynamic selection of encryption vs. non-encryption
21:09
or even user's choice
21:09
at login time
21:09
<alkisg>
I understand, I'm just saying that nfs-bottom/ltsp isn't really needed anymore and can be removed, independed of bind-mounts
21:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yes, i wasn't shipping it in my recent packages.
21:10
<alkisg>
Ah ok, well I'll leave it up to you do delete it when you think it's appropriate
21:10
<vagrantc>
alkisg, stgraber: you think you're handling ubuntu uploads today or tomorrow?
21:11* alkisg just pushed his last change for today
21:11
<vagrantc>
alkisg: go ahead and kill of nfs-bottom/ltsp, i'd say. can always resurrect it if i really need.
21:11
<alkisg>
I can work on some more stuff tomorrow
21:11
I don't know when stgraber wants to upload, but if he could wait one more day it'd be in a better shape
21:12
<Hyperbyte>
So how about X_ENCRYPTION and X_ENCRYPTION_USERS ?
21:13
Where X_ENCRYPTION_USERS is optional, defaults to 'all'
21:15
<alkisg>
And yet another idea... at the "preferences" option of ldm, to have a check box about [x] Secure (but slow) connection
21:15
At least some of the users that don't read notes would notice then
21:16
<Hyperbyte>
:)
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21:21
<stgraber>
vagrantc: my deadline is Thursday 21:00 UTC, so I plan to upload as late as 20:59 UTC
21:24
<vagrantc>
hah. just had a face to face conversation with someone using LTSP at a local co-op grocery store :)
21:24
stgraber: heh.
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21:50
<alkisg>
vagrantc, stgraber, should I move nbdswap from inetd to nbd-server too? With the "%s" (ip) command line option we can easily generate a swap file for each client, on the fly
21:51
...and we won't need another port either
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21:52
<vagrantc>
alkisg: does it handle cleanup on disconnect?
21:53
<alkisg>
vagrantc: postrun script
21:53
If specified, then it is assumed to be a command that will be ran when a client has disconnected. This can be useful to clean up
21:53
whatever prerun has set up, to log something, or similar.
21:53
If the literal string '%s' is present in the command, it will be replaced by the file name that has just been closed.
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21:57
<stgraber>
alkisg: sounds good
21:58
<alkisg>
Nice. I put some of the TODOs in http://pad.ubuntu.com/ltsp-server-precise, but they're getting too many to do them all tomorrow, if someone has time to help... :)
22:04
'night all
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