IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.libera.chat (webchat)

Channel log from 22 March 2011 (all times are UTC)

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01:15	<elias_a> muppis: You are absolutely right - It is suitable for demo purposes just like M$ software...
01:15	Real work is another thing ;-)
01:19	<muppis> :D
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02:16	<xavier_brochard> hello I've just installed a fresh debian squeeze ltsp and client won't boot: nothing happened after pxelinux.o is loaded any idea?
02:17	sorry, it seems it doesnt load pxelinux.o
02:19	<alkisg> xavier_brochard: what are the exact lines on the client?
02:19	Getting IP, tftp failure etc, anything it writes there
02:22	<xavier_brochard> hi alkis, you've just helped me! The client display Loading 192.168.1.1 /ltsp/i386/pxeinux.O - But the IP is wrong
02:23	But I don't understand why the ip for tftp is different from the one of the server
02:24	<alkisg> You have 2 dhcp servers? Or, an invalid "next-server" in dhcpd.conf?
02:25	<xavier_brochard> only one dhcp server (192.168.1.20) but next-server 192.168.1.1 in the dhcp.conf - as allways
02:26	<alkisg> next-server is the tftp server
02:26	So if that's not what you want, change it
02:27	Or completely remove that line
02:27	(it defaults to the dhcp server)
02:27	<xavier_brochard> ok thanks, I have never realised that it was for the tftp
02:28	<alkisg> Maybe you're looking for "option router"?
02:30	<xavier_brochard> I've change the line, it works. Thanks again, you provide allways great help.
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03:43	<elias_a>
03:43	<alkisg> Wwwooooowww!
03:43	elias_a: any links, even in Finnish?
03:44	<elias_a> I am trying to think about the price tag for training in a worst case scenarion.
03:44	scenario...
03:44	alkisg: Not yet - writing a paper soon to be published.
03:44	Or wait...
03:45	http://www.avopaikka.fi/kankaanp%C3%A4%C3%A4n-lukiolle-30-000-euron-s%C3%A4%C3%A4st%C3%B6t-linuxilla
03:45	But the volume is not mentioned there.
03:45	Now I have the actual figures.
03:45	<alkisg> elias_a: Thanks! When you're done with the paper, please post it in the ltsp-discuss mailing list :)
03:46	<elias_a>
03:46	Proprietary boys will have some real problems with me in near future...
03:47	<alkisg> Coooool!
03:47	<elias_a> So, please help me with the counter argument...
03:48	The prices do not include training.
03:48	<alkisg> What's the counter argument?
03:48	<knipwim> it's probably easier to find windows trained people
03:48	<elias_a> What could be the price tag for training 20 teachers to use LTSP instead of Windoze.
03:49	<alkisg> Training is temporary, after a few years there won't be any difference in training about LTSP vs training about Windows
03:49	<elias_a> knipwim: There are no qualifications for the IT skills for teachers in Finland.
03:49	They sort of just "can" it...
03:49	God given, unquestioned myth :)
03:49	<knipwim> i meant administrators; on the long run, a school might not want to dependent on an LTSP admin who might leave the school
03:53	<elias_a> knipwim: That model is not used in Finland. LTSP is bought as a service. Multiple vendors -> competition.
03:53	Well - some do but in most cases not.
03:55	So administration is not a problem.
03:55	<knipwim> nice
03:55	<elias_a> Would you guys be interested to have a webinar later this spring about the way things are here in Finland?
03:56	Not a real success story yet but we are making progress.
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04:49	<elias_a> Could someone check out the nominal output of a power of a thin client power?
05:05	<mgariepy> good morning everyone
05:14	<evil_root> morning
05:14	<shamino> elias: well that most likely depends on hardware. we have intel atom-based TCs in compucase mini-itx -chassis. power supply is hec-120sa-7fx and it has 120W max power output. i checked the energy consumption while ago and it was 35W-50W..
05:15	<highvoltage> good morning mgariepy
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07:16	<elias_a> shamino: Thank you!
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07:36	<thunsucker> Would you guys recommend 10.04 or 10.10 for a fresh fat client setup?
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07:47	<thunsucker> tryign to a build a fat client on ubuntu 10.04 and I get this
07:47	Reading package lists... Done
07:47	Building dependency tree
07:47	Reading state information... Done
07:47	E: Couldn't find package #
07:47	umount: /opt/ltsp/i386/proc: device is busy.
07:47	(In some cases useful info about processes that use
07:48	the device is found by lsof(8) or fuser(1))
07:48	<alkisg> thunsucker: put ltsp-build-client.conf to pastebin
07:48	<thunsucker> alkisg: it's the generic one from the wiki (<---this is trey) from yesterday
07:49	i commented a few things out
07:49	LATE_PACKAGES="
07:49	ubuntu-restricted-extras
07:49	# gimp
07:49	# nfs-client
07:49	# flashplugin-nonfree
07:49	"
07:49	<alkisg> thunsucker: right, so it must be trying to install a package .. with no name or something?
07:49	Yup
07:49	You can't comment inside a string
07:49	Remove those lines completely
07:49	<thunsucker> the #
07:49	?
07:49	<alkisg> Yes
07:50	<thunsucker> the default one has one there already
07:50	<alkisg> LATE_PACKAGES="
07:50	ubuntu-restricted-extras
07:50	"
07:50	See the quotes
07:50	Those quotes form a string
07:50	You can't have comments inside a string
07:50	<thunsucker> okay
07:50	<alkisg> You can have comments outside of strings
07:51	thunsucker: unmount the chroot/proc before re-running ltsp-build-client
07:51	<thunsucker> alkisg: k
07:51	<alkisg> If unsure, reboot the server if it's easy for you
07:52	<thunsucker> alkisg: will reboot, tried to umount it but gave error that it was busy
07:52	<alkisg> sudo lsof /opt/ltsp/i386
07:52	But ok reboot it's easier
07:55	<thunsucker> alkisg: ty for the info, building the client again :P
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07:56	<alkisg> thunsucker: hehe so the wiki page is broken now with the comment on flashplugin
07:57	<thunsucker> alkisg: yes lol
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08:00	<alkisg> It was broken in rev. 23 by linuxadmin...
08:04	<thunsucker> alkisg: thats no fun, I tried to update it but had to reset my password
08:04	<alkisg> You password? Why?
08:04	<thunsucker> looks like you already got it :P
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08:04	<alkisg> Ah, the wiki? Yes just right now
08:04	<thunsucker> I was able to make changes to the wiki stuff before, just don't remember my password for the login I used
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08:27	<sbalneav> Morning all
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08:30	<Gadi> Scotty!!!
08:30	<alkisg> !s
08:30	<Gadi> the sun shines again
08:30	<alkisg> ...and still no bot. :)
08:31	<Gadi> honestly, rather have Scotty than the bot
08:31	<alkisg> But it doesn't matter because we now have pam_sshauth!!!
08:31	<Gadi> the bot always talked back
08:32	<alkisg> So I imagine in a couple of years we'll be able to use a standalone PC to connect to an ltsp server, with sound and localdev and all :)
08:33	<sbalneav> Ah, the bot!
08:33	<slaps forhead>
08:33	I'll get to that today.
08:33	<alkisg> np, no hurry
08:33	How are you doing?
08:33	<sbalneav> Well, some good, some bad.
08:34	Works slowing down slightly, allowing me to get back into the swing of things.
08:34	My guts are giving me trouble. Hard to tell if it's something stress related, or something more sinister.
08:35	<alkisg> Gadi missed you so much that he didn't make any yo' momma's jokes all that time :D
08:35	<sbalneav> My doctor has me undetaking a "shitload" (haha) of tests, and he'll determine if more invasive procedures are needed from there.
08:35	<alkisg> Ouch
08:35	<sbalneav> so we'll see.
08:35	HOWEVER... that aside.
08:36	I've got the SSH tunnel down to ONE LINE of SHELL SCRIPT code. Just for you, Gadi.
08:36	<Gadi> :)
08:36	<sbalneav> so now we need to figure out how to glue all of this stuff together.
08:36	<Gadi> I specialize in glue
08:36	eating, sniffing,
08:37	<sbalneav> Eeeeugh. White glue tastes awful.
08:37	<Gadi> see? now we know why ur guts hurt
08:37	<sbalneav> heh.
08:37	<Gadi> stop eating the white glue
08:37	:)
08:37	<alkisg> :D
08:37	<sbalneav> Oh, THAT'S the problem!
08:37	WHY WASN'T THERE A WARNING LABEL?!
08:38	* Gadi wonders why he is idling on hold to contest a $6 charge - see what the economy has done to me?
08:39	<sbalneav> Anywho, now what we need is to find a few intrepid hackers and set aside a block of a couple of hours to actually hack up a chroot and see if this can be made to work.
08:39	So my question is: any takers? And when?
08:39	<alkisg> Intrepid? /me is using Lucid... :P
08:39	<sbalneav> <smack>
08:41	* alkisg would love to help but needs to move on with his phd... :(
08:41	<alkisg> I love the "ldm not needed anymore" idea
08:42	<sbalneav> Oh:
08:42	alkisg:
08:42	http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110320.html
08:43	Anyone see the megamoon last night? I didn't; it was overcast :(
08:43	<alkisg> Whoo, he must have used a telescope to take that picture
08:48	<Gadi> sbalneav: I have a million things to do too - but unlike some people, I excel at procrastination
08:48	<thunsucker> pastebin!
08:48	http://pastebin.com/kxLtXuQj
08:48	alkisg: http://pastebin.com/kxLtXuQj
08:49	<alkisg> thunsucker: line 6
08:49	<thunsucker> alkisg: n/m ignore that, I know whats wrong with with that
08:49	<alkisg> No space left on device
08:49	<thunsucker> alkisg: thats what I get for keeping the 20 copies of different builds lol
08:49	<alkisg> :)
08:50	<thunsucker> how much space is needed for a fat client build
08:50	not more than 10g's right?
08:51	<alkisg> Depends on what you put it in
08:51	For the wiki page defaults, less than 5
08:51	<thunsucker> cool
08:51	<alkisg> Also remember to re-enable compression and to disable nbd-proxy
08:52	It makes fat clients 2.5 times faster
08:52	<sbalneav> Gadi: I try to excel at procrastination, but I keep putting it off.
08:52	tail recursion.
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08:57	<roasted_> whats up fellas
08:58	might be installing LTSP to production faster than we thought. Our current ncomputing solution has been down for 2 days, yet the server says it's up. :P
09:00	<thunsucker> roasted_: another win for LTSP :P
09:00	<roasted_> I hear ya
09:01	we just gotta dig up 30 old boxes to put in place
09:01	cause ncomputing uses proprietary client stations with no cpu and no ram in them at all
09:01	<thunsucker> roasted_: libraries and schools are a great place to get them
09:02	<roasted_> we are a school
09:02	:)
09:02	<thunsucker> cool even easier then
09:02	school in the us?
09:02	<roasted_> we have the old boxes
09:02	theyre just crappy enough that XP doesnt work
09:02	but
09:02	for LTSP... perfect gear :P
09:02	yes, in the US
09:02	brb in 10, gonna grab lunch
09:02	<thunsucker> yup yup
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09:10	<roasted_> man
09:10	school lunches are expensive
09:11	anyway yeah
09:11	we have anothe rthing to try with ncomputing, but Im skeptical itll work
09:11	I have a feeling we'll be truckin down to the warehouse where we have these old systems stored
09:11	glad we never tossed them
09:13	<thunsucker> yup
09:13	you guys a college or a k12?
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09:16	<roasted_> k12
09:16	budgets are crazy tight nowadays, so LTSP came along just in time
09:17	my boss asked me if I could get ubuntu on the domain, because we cant afford windows 7and he was afraid xPs support would get dropped sooner than we were prepared for
09:17	in doing so I found ltsp
09:17	came in here and been bugging the developers ever since. :P
09:17	<thunsucker> roasted_: thats the best way
09:18	<roasted_> I've learned a ton here. I mean, it's one thing to read the material but sometimes it's nice to hear different scenarios out there too
09:18	<thunsucker> i'm currently the network admin with a team of guys for about 7 schools
09:18	<roasted_> and since nobody I know is using LTSP personally I feel like such a guinea pig
09:18	<thunsucker> if you never any help I'll be glad to help with my limited knowledge lol, schools and their super's can be interesting
09:18	<roasted_> yeah, we have 7 schools as well. 8 buildings total w/ the admin building
09:19	we might be presenting this next week
09:19	to the admins
09:19	<thunsucker> very cool
09:19	<roasted_> if I'm the one doing the talking, which I have a feeling I might be since I'm kind of the pusher of LTSP in the department, it'll be very interesting
09:19	because I believe in the open source model
09:19	everything about it I think is so robust and rock solid
09:20	<thunsucker> roasted_: your admins scared of open source?
09:20	<roasted_> like I talk to vendors of other software companies. microsoft being the obvious one, ncomputing, etc
09:20	and their engineers dont sound like they know htat much
09:20	yet I talk to some guys in here and it's evident these guys know their stuff
09:20	they used to be
09:20	Ive been here 3 yrs, and I've quietly pushed open source all along
09:21	nobody really listened because we had the money to dish out for MS OFfice, etc.
09:21	then some spending cuts came about a year nad a half ago
09:21	<thunsucker> roasted_: make sure to mention one of the benefits of ltsp, that you can have several machines "ready to go" in case any of your machines die, and the downtime is only long enought to swap boxes
09:21	<roasted_> I pushed for openoffice in the labs, and we got it.
09:21	<thunsucker> roasted_: that is awesome
09:21	<roasted_> yeah
09:21	<thunsucker> I actually work for an erate contractor
09:22	so I'm in and out of all these big and small districts and everyone is hurting for money
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09:28	<jsass> hello all.
09:30	Can anybody tell me why the following configuration would result in my clients not being able to log in? here's a pastebin of my network interfaces conf file: http://pastebin.com/m7sEqNFC
09:31	if I comment out the gateway line in eth0, everything works great
09:31	the gateway IS correct, and the server can access the internet. However, none of the clients can log in
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09:34	<alkisg> jsass: maybe leave the gateway, boot the clients with SCREEN_02=shell/SCREEN_07=ldm, and try to debug it from the client?
09:35	<evil_root> and jsass are you using a two nic setup and sending your client traffic threw the server, or you sending the clients out the gateway?
09:35	<jsass> alkisg: which log file should I be checking? I'm in shell right now
09:35	<alkisg> jsass: try: ssh user@server
09:35	<jsass> evil_root: This is a two-nic setup
09:35	<alkisg> Change user with an existing username, leave server as it is,don't change the nme
09:35	name
09:36	Check for any ssh warnings/errors
09:36	<jsass> alkisg: I am able to SSH from a client shell to the server
09:37	<alkisg> Without any warnings? OK, switch to ldm and try from there too
09:38	<jsass> ok
09:39	...hmm... ok, now it works.
09:39	before an ssh from client to server would hang. no errors
09:39	<alkisg> Try again after a client reboot
09:39	<jsass> it just sat there...
09:39	<thunsucker> jsass: how long did you wait?
09:39	<jsass> so I was pretty surprised that I was able to ssh
09:40	<alkisg> You didn't see any warnings at all when you tried to ssh from the shell?
09:40	<jsass> thunsucker: it seemed like 5 minutes at least.
09:40	alkisg: I saw no warnings. It just sat there. I couldn't ^C out of the ssh attempt either.
09:40	<alkisg> Ah, you tried from the console and it hanged?
09:41	sometimes ctrl+z works for me when ctrl+c fails
09:41	<jsass> alkisg: correct
09:41	ok, after client reboot, I was able to log right in
09:41	weird.
09:42	is there something that has to time out in order to have a properly working login with gateway specified?
09:42	<roasted_> welp
09:42	looks like we're moving forward
09:42	and.. uh... fast
09:42	<thunsucker> roasted_: cheer
09:42	<roasted_> boss couldnt even wait till our 2pm meeting
09:42	<jsass> roasted_: congratulations!
09:42	<roasted_> he just came in here just now
09:42	we need a solution. now.
09:43	<thunsucker> roasted_: you have a badboy server ready for ltsp?
09:43	<roasted_> this whole "we need things to work but we cant spend anything" argument is such BS.
09:43	thunsucker: I do, but it only had 2gb of ram.
09:43	I asked him to get me more ram
09:43	but budget cuts etc
09:43	<thunsucker> roasted_: do you clients have at least 512MB of ram?
09:43	<roasted_> well then you have no solution
09:43	thunsucker: not sure of that. I have to go to the warehouse now to see.
09:43	thunsucker: I would think they MIGHT.
09:43	if they do I could try fat clients
09:43	512 RAM on 1.8ghz P4's...
09:43	eh?
09:44	<thunsucker> yea that would be fine depending on what they do
09:44	<roasted_> libre office, firefox
09:44	light duty for the most part
09:44	<thunsucker> flash will kill them
09:44	lol
09:44	<roasted_> no CADD stuff
09:44	<alkisg> Haha those are the heaviest programs :)
09:44	<roasted_> flash kills those boxes with XP installed
09:44	so I'm not concerned
09:44	<alkisg> Cad is usually lighter :D
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09:44	<roasted_> whaaaaat
09:44	alkisg: thats crazy
09:44	<alkisg> hehe
09:44	<thunsucker> alkisg: ty dude, i was able to build the fat client
09:44	<roasted_> it should work tho - right?
09:45	<thunsucker> but only just by the hair on my chin: /dev/sda1 7.5G 7.1G 99M 99% /
09:45	<roasted_> maybe not break any speed records but it SHOULD. right??
09:45	<thunsucker> roasted_: yes
09:45	do you guys run full blown desktops or terminal servers?
09:45	* alkisg just loves it when people say - "I don't want anything heavy, just to be able to surf on the net with youtube, facebook games etc" that's a cpu killer
09:45	<thunsucker> lol
09:45	<roasted_> alkisg: well its light compared to photoshop and a lot of our other apps :P
09:45	light for US... imo...
09:46	thunsucker: we have propreitary terminal servers for ncomputing, but we're ripping them out
09:46	everything else is a dedicated box
09:46	the oldest gear we have are compaq evos @ 1.8ghz P4 and 512 RAM (I think)
09:46	if they don't have 512 we might be able to bump them up
09:46	<thunsucker> roasted_: should be fine then
09:46	how many clients does this thing need to run
09:46	<roasted_> 30 minimal
09:46	possibly 50
09:47	ncomputing houses 2 labs now
09:47	1, of 30, is top priority
09:47	<alkisg> My kids are able to run gimp with 512Mb RAM, but they can't play pet-society on facebook with the same PC
09:47	<roasted_> the 2nd, of 20, is kinda whatever
09:47	in my experience, 512 ram will allow firefox (1 tab), gimp, and 1 instance of openoffice to run without any noticeable lab
09:47	I havent tested video streaming or anything
09:47	<alkisg> Video without flash is very light
09:47	Video with flash... sucks
09:48	<roasted_> that being said, I gotta bounce guys. I Gotta see what old gear we have in the warehouse
09:48	alkisg: you are the man. appreciate all the time you've given me so far with helping get this off the ground.
09:48	<alkisg> np, wish you luck
09:48	bb
09:48	<roasted_> mucho thanks. later!
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10:25	<roasted__> thunsucker: ping
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10:25	<thunsucker> roasted__: pong
10:25	lol
10:25	<roasted__> thunsucker: do you have LTSP in the field
10:25	in your district
10:26	<thunsucker> roasted__: yes
10:26	<roasted__> what kind of a setup do you have
10:26	like how many clients, servers, etc
10:27	<NeonLicht> Do you use "mucho gracias"?
10:27	<thunsucker> roasted__: i work at many different districts, not just one
10:27	<roasted__> ah
10:27	are you in the US
10:27	<thunsucker> roasted__: yup
10:27	<roasted__> nice, nice
10:27	good to see other US schools are using Ubuntu
10:27	or anything other than apple/windows for that matter
10:27	<thunsucker> roasted__: I run the regular thin client setup, but none of my clients use the ubuntu desktop
10:27	<roasted__> what do they use?
10:28	<thunsucker> roasted__: running a screen script to access windows terminal servers
10:28	<roasted__> :(
10:28	<thunsucker> roasted__: working on dev with a fat client right now though, to change that
10:28	<evil_root> we have some schools up here in montana using ltsp
10:28	<roasted__> nice
10:28	<thunsucker> oklahoma here
10:28	<evil_root> :)
10:28	<roasted__> I'm trying to find some extra RAM to bump these old rigs to 512
10:28	cause I need to try a fat image for them with only having 2gb in the server
10:29	<thunsucker> you could try them as th in clients to see what happens
10:29	or
10:29	you could try them with less than 512 as a fat client
10:29	<roasted__> 2gb ram on the server for 30 clients?
10:29	recipe for disaster :P
10:29	<evil_root> not if u use links for the browser and blackbox for the window manager
10:29	:P
10:30	<Gadi> roasted__: are you using LDM_DIRECTX?
10:31	it may also help you eek out more performance
10:32	<roasted__> Gadi: never heard of it...??
10:33	<Gadi> try setting LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf (for thin clients)
10:33	and then try your video stuff
10:33	see if it helps
10:34	<thunsucker> roasted__: why do you ask if I have a in the field setup? you having issues getting things started?
10:35	<roasted__> thunsucker: no I was just curious if you had already done setups
10:35	<thunsucker> roasted__: ahh yes, many. this is my first trip down the fat client path
10:37	roasted__: the fat client guide is very detailed and will walk you through it
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10:37	<thunsucker> assuming that you're goign to use ubuntu
10:39	<roasted__> thunsucker: what fat client guide?
10:39	I felt like fat client doucmentation was kind of slim... perhaps you can link me??
10:40	<thunsucker> roasted__: best collection of documents: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/
10:40	roasted__: specific fat client that I've been using: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
10:41	<roasted__> one thing I had a hard time grasping was the chroot
10:41	because I could have sworn yesterday when I installed an app on the fat client SERVER, the client got that app
10:41	which confused me, I thought I had to install it to the fat chroot for the client to see it
10:41	<thunsucker> roasted__: i will explain
10:42	you have the server, and then the chroot
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10:42	<roasted__> and the chroot = client image
10:42	right
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10:42	<thunsucker> yes
10:42	<roasted__> its what the clients see
10:42	<thunsucker> think of them as 2 different machines
10:42	2 different devices
10:42	<roasted__> right
10:42	independent
10:43	<thunsucker> you have to install the software in each
10:43	if you want the server and chroot to see
10:43	if you only want it on the server, you only install it ont he server
10:43	so they do not share software installs
10:43	you must install software individually on each
10:43	<roasted__> so realistically if I don't need the software on the server, the server can remain a vanilla edubuntu install
10:44	and I can just chroot in and apt-get whatever I need
10:44	therefore
10:44	<thunsucker> roasted__: you bet
10:44	<roasted__> the clients could have 1,000 apps
10:44	and the server may have just default apps
10:44	<thunsucker> roasted__: correct
10:44	<roasted__> that's EXACTLY what I thought
10:44	however
10:44	I could have sworn in my testing yesterday I added an app to the SERVER
10:44	and my fat client saw it
10:44	maybe I messed up tho
10:44	I was multitasking like no other
10:45	<thunsucker> it might also be an app thats already int he chroot
10:45	<roasted__> thunsucker: and even if I edit my lts.conf so I force EVERYBODY to use thin clients, even if I'm on a fat chroot, I STILL have to install software through the chroot for the fat image. right?
10:45	like regardless of what lts.conf says
10:45	if I have a fat chroot, I install through chroot
10:45	etc
10:45	if I have a thin chroot, then I can install from software center on server and it's good
10:46	<thunsucker> roasted__: let me answer your question in private :)
10:46	get my im?
10:47	<roasted__> yup. sorry looked away from laptop
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10:57	<bencer_> hi all, do you know how to make localapps use the same gtk theme than the whole gnome environment running on the server, so users doesn't notice localapps with a different look?
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11:39	<thunsucker> correct me if I'm wrong
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11:39	<thunsucker> but when using ubuntu+ltsp in a thinclient setup, you must install apps individually on the server and in the chroot, correct?
11:40	installing on the server allows me to access it on the server, installing it only in the chroot allows me to only access it from the chroot
11:42	<thefinn93> yes
11:42	that sound correct to me
11:43	<thunsucker> yup
11:43	that is the way it's always been
11:43	someone claimed they installed a few things on the server and they appeared in the chroot, maybe a script that syncs them?
11:43	lol
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11:43	<roasted__> yarp
11:44	I NEVER installed apps to the thin chroot
11:44	yet
11:44	my thin clients can see them, use them, access them, etc
11:44	not so with my fat setup. very different.
11:44	<thefinn93> yes, but they can't run locally
11:44	<roasted__> right
11:44	I see the server eating more ram/cpu when the clients launch apps
11:44	they're definitely using server resources
11:45	<thunsucker> roasted__: did you do all the installs from the gui
11:45	did you do any commands from the command line interface?
11:45	<roasted__> I always do apt-get install unless I dont know the exact command for the program I want
11:45	<thunsucker> okay
11:45	<roasted__> and sometimes I browse software center just to see whats there, and if I see something, I install there
11:45	<thunsucker> gotcha
11:46	did you do any commands with the word" chroot" in them?
11:46	<roasted__> only on my fat server
11:46	which Im working on as we speak
11:46	I know how to install apps through chroot
11:46	I'm just telling you, I never have on the other box with the thin client setup
11:46	you do sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 and launch your aptget commands there to install
11:46	then update
11:46	right
11:47	<thunsucker> roasted__: yes lol but thats what I'm telling you dude
11:47	<roasted__> like as we speak Im in chroot installing libreoffice....
11:47	I understand what you're saying
11:47	<thunsucker> when you do sudo chroot.....that is "logging" into the chroot to install apps
11:47	<roasted__> right
11:47	I'm just saying
11:47	the other box... the thin client box... I never was in chroot
11:47	<thunsucker> so on your library install of ltsp, which is the thinclient setup
11:48	you never issue the chroot commands
11:48	<roasted__> nope
11:48	just installed the apps and ran update-image
11:48	<thunsucker> you jst install an app and ltsp-update-iamge and bam it's in your chroot
11:48	<roasted__> ltsp-update-image --arch i386
11:48	it shows up on the clients
11:48	that's all I can say
11:48	with fat clients, this did NOT happen
11:48	on fat I NEED chroot for the apps to work
11:49	<thunsucker> i understand what you're saying
11:49	<roasted__> as I just now demonstrated in my test environment with my 3 fat clients to my laptop acting as a server on asecluded LAN
11:49	I just never had that on the thin setup, hwich is what I started with when I first began with LTSP
11:49	<thunsucker> tradiionally that is not how it works with fat or thin, you have to install them in the chroot
11:49	i wonder if there is a script or somethign similiar that installs them to both
11:49	when alkisg comes bck, i'll bug him about it lol
11:49	<roasted__> alksig isnt here either
11:50	yeah
11:50	he's a genius. he'd know.
11:50	<thunsucker> lol
11:50	he probably wrote something custom for you :P
11:50	<roasted__> haaa
11:50	never know!
11:50	thunsucker: you ever se tup default profiles in /etc/skel?
11:50	<thunsucker> roasted__: no
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11:51	<roasted__> hm
11:51	I may have an issue here with fat clients in a moment
11:51	I THINK
11:52	<evil_root> what be the issue roasted__?
11:53	<roasted__> I totally just installed libre office to the chroot
11:53	yet
11:53	OH
11:53	WOW
11:53	I SUCK
11:53	sorry. ignore me
11:54	<evil_root> lol
11:54	<roasted__> Im so glad Im a terminal junkie. otherwise this LTSP configuring with chroot would make me sick.
11:54	I'm trying to set up a default profile using /etc/skel
11:54	but my users didnt seem to get it
11:54	my outburst above was for something unrelated
11:55	I wonder if the update might help, as the profile issues I saw was in regard to libreoffice links, but I didnt update the chroot so maybe it has no idea it exists
11:55	shrug
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11:59	<evil_root> lol no clue roasted__ i have never screwed with profiles
12:02	<mgariepy> roasted__, /etc/skel is only copied when the user home directory doesn't exist
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12:07	<roasted__> mgariepy: right, but if Im doing that with fat clients, I dont have to edit /etc/skel in the chroot, do I?
12:07	mgariepy: or does it use the /etc/skel of the server itself
12:09	yeah. these guys arent getting my profile I put in /etc/skel of the server
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12:11	<mgariepy> not sure how it works with fat cleint
12:12	<roasted__> hmm
12:12	It doesnt look like it generated a profile for this user AT ALL
12:12	theres nothing in home on the server or in the chroot
12:12	oh boy
12:13	<thunsucker> roasted__: you follow a guide on the wiki on how to do it?
12:13	<roasted__> how to do what. default profiles?
12:13	my fat client just froze. :(
12:14	<thunsucker> what i mean is did you read about what you're trying to do
12:14	<roasted__> Im really having severe doubts about using fat instead of thin for this lab
12:14	<thunsucker> research it
12:14	find out what is expected behaviour?
12:14	<roasted__> thunsucker: what I'm trying to do I've done hundreds of times.
12:14	just never with fat clients.
12:14	works great with thin clients though
12:14	<thunsucker> what exactly are you trying to do
12:15	<roasted__> set the default profile
12:15	ubuntu uses whats in /etc/skel to copy to a users home directory
12:15	aka, profile
12:15	so I Edit the profile the way I want and copy all of the .files to /etc/skel
12:15	works great, no issues. but not with fat clients.
12:15	<thunsucker> makes sense
12:15	<roasted__> in fact, I don't even know where my user folder is. The entire server sees no entry for "test1" on the sever at all.
12:15	<thunsucker> where are you editing the profile at
12:15	and where did you copy them
12:16	<roasted__> I create a new local user, edit the way I want, log out, log in as administrator, and using root nautilus copy it over.
12:16	then Ireset perms on /etc/skel to 755 recursively
12:16	bam. done. over.
12:16	<thunsucker> on the server right?
12:16	<roasted__> works every. single. time.
12:16	yes
12:16	<thunsucker> thats your problem
12:16	do it in the chroot :)
12:16	<roasted__> that's what I was asking
12:16	however
12:16	I would think the user would have a home folder created in the chroot
12:16	but they do not
12:16	<thunsucker> or edit your profile then copy the files over to the chroot
12:16	<roasted__> anyway Igotta get to the warehouse in about 3 minutes
12:16	but
12:16	when I get back Ill try it in chroot
12:16	brb
12:16	thanks btw
12:17	<Gadi> whoa...
12:17	<roasted__> I need to clone myself so I stop having to run everywhere every 5 minutes
12:17	<thunsucker> Gadi: spam lol
12:17	<Gadi> roasted__: do you use mkhomedir?
12:17	<roasted__> I type faster than I think, what can I say
12:17	<alkisg> Erm, guys, no home in the chroot
12:17	<roasted__> Gadi: no. but I gotta go... I'll be back in a bit
12:17	<alkisg> home is always on the server
12:17	<Gadi> the homedir is on the derver
12:17	<roasted__> alkisg: so where do I set /etc/skel?
12:17	<Gadi> *server even
12:17	<thunsucker> ahh gotcha
12:17	<alkisg> roasted__: in the chroot, because that's where the programs run
12:17	<Gadi> on the server - but /etc/skel only applies to new users
12:18	<roasted__> alkisg: in the /etc/skel of chroot
12:18	<alkisg> roasted__: yes
12:18	(Gadi - it's for fat clients)
12:18	<roasted__> alkisg: okay. but only for fat clients, clearly
12:18	<thunsucker> roasted had an issue earlier where on his ubuntu thin client setup, he installs an app on the servers and it magically appears in the chroot, did something change since I've been gone?
12:18	<roasted__> alkisg: because /etc/skel on the SERVER works for thin clients.
12:18	withOUT using chroot
12:18	that sound right?
12:18	<alkisg> thunsucker: nah, he's probably using thin clients if he sees the program :)
12:18	<Gadi> uhh... even with fat clients
12:18	you create users on the server
12:19	<alkisg> roasted__: yes, /etc/skel on the server is for thin clients, and /etc/skel on the chroot is for fat clients
12:19	<Gadi> their homedir is created at that time
12:19	<roasted__> Gadi: I'm tlaking about the difference from /etc/skel (server) versus /etc/skel of chroot
12:19	alkisg: bingo! thanks!
12:19	<Gadi> right
12:19	<thunsucker> alkisg: i thought so, you have to install the apps seperately ont he server and in the chroot
12:19	<roasted__> gotta go...
12:19	<alkisg> Gadi: ah, not when they logon? Right sorry
12:19	roasted__: see what Gadi says about skel
12:19	<roasted__> what
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12:19	<Gadi> ok deep breaths
12:19	<roasted__> alkisg: skel is when the home folder is first created.
12:19	<Gadi> :)
12:19	<thunsucker> lol
12:19	<Gadi> right
12:19	<thunsucker> roasted__: you talk too fast for an answer sometimes
12:20	* alkisg uses logon scripts instead of skel :)
12:20	<roasted__> right
12:20	<Gadi> users are created on the server
12:20	<roasted__> right
12:20	<Gadi> that action creates their homedir from /etc/skel on the server
12:20	<roasted__> right
12:20	<Gadi> when you use fat clients, /home is mounted from /home on the server
12:20	therefore, all that matters is /etc/skel on the server (where users are created)
12:21	<roasted__> here's my thing
12:21	<Gadi> whether you use fat or thin clients
12:21	<roasted__> LTSP with thin clients, I edit /etc/skel, and the new users get it accordingly.
12:21	LTSP with fat clients, I edit /etc/skel, they DO NOT get it accordingly.
12:21	<evil_root> are you editing /etc/skel in the chroot on the fat?
12:21	<roasted__> that's why I Was wondering if I had to edit /etc/skel in the chroot, or on the server, because I DID edit it on the server and it did nothing.
12:21	no
12:21	that's what I'm asking
12:21	do I edit skel in chroot, or skel on server
12:21	<Gadi> time out
12:21	<roasted__> because what I'm gathering from gadi is what I did should have worked, yet it didn't
12:22	<Gadi> stop saying chroot
12:22	:)
12:22	lol
12:22	<evil_root> lol
12:22	<alkisg> Hehe
12:22	<Gadi> there is only one home directory
12:22	in both cases
12:22	<Q-FUNK> STOP SAYING SHIT THRU THE ROOF!
12:22	:-P
12:22	<Gadi> /etc/skel is the template for the home directory
12:22	* evil_root goes back to coloring in the corner
12:22	<thunsucker> roasted__: you need to slow down your responses, read for a bit and understand the point people are trying to make
12:23	<Gadi> when you log in as a user on a fat client - is it not the same homedir as the same user on a thin client?
12:23	if, so how can we say they are different?
12:23	<alkisg> roasted__: as Gadi says, when you run `adduser`, /etc/skel is copied. At that exact time. It doesn't matter if you have thin, fat, or even if you don't have LTSP at all. You can run `ls /home/newuser` at that time to see if it was effective.
12:23	<Gadi> if you prick it, does it not bleed?
12:24	I just hope you guys aren't on a mobile phone
12:24	:)
12:24	<thunsucker> lol
12:24	<Gadi> that'd be some serious texting
12:25	<thunsucker> i haven't found a good irc client for my droid
12:25	<evil_root> andchat is what i use thunsucker
12:25	<thunsucker> cool i will try it out
12:25	<alkisg> thunsucker: I'm ok with www.yaaic.org
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12:26	<alkisg> Gadi stop offending people they leave :P :D
12:26	<thunsucker> lol
12:26	<Gadi> whatd I say?
12:26	<thunsucker> it was probably me
12:26	<alkisg> How could you tell him to stop saying "chroot'? :D
12:26	<thunsucker> just BECAUSE i TOLD THE GUY to RELAX
12:27	i don't blame gadi for saying that
12:27	<Gadi> well, you know - it is the chroot drinking game that was getting to me
12:27	<thunsucker> the guy doesn't get it and won't read the documentation to understand how things work
12:27	<alkisg> thunsucker: just joking, he probably just lost his connection
12:27	<Gadi> well, to be fair, we were offering conflicting advice
12:27	:)
12:27	<thunsucker> we argued for 30 minutes that he installed the apps into the chroot and he claimed he only installed them on the server
12:27	<Q-FUNK> the root, the root, the root is on fire
12:27	<NeonLicht> :D
12:28	<thunsucker> we don't need no water let that mother-beeper burn
12:28	or is it we don't need no kit, that that mother-beeper root?
12:29	* alkisg made a script that puts a different wallpaper on thin clients vs fat vs the server, maybe it'll be useful in this case :)
12:30	<thunsucker> lol
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12:33	<thunsucker> alkisg: my droid does like that irc client
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12:42	<roasted_> okay...
12:42	:)
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12:43	<roasted_> So let me recap by saying this...
12:43	I need to edit the default profile. I would like to accomplish that task by editing /etc/skel so all new users logging in get those files accordingly, presenting them with a customized menu, desktop, etc. It's just the way I would like to get it done.
12:44	Do I need to edit /etc/skel on the server itself (root - etc - skel) or within the chroot of the fat client image on the server? (root - opt - ltsp - i386 - etc - skel)
12:45	<Gadi> roasted_: here's the answer:
12:45	the user's /home is the same on the server and client
12:45	but the rest of the OS is different
12:45	<roasted_> so I would need to edit it iwthin the chroot of the fat client
12:45	since the rest of the OS is different, and all
12:45	<Gadi> so, to the extent that you can capture all customizations in /home, there is no need to modify the chroot
12:46	but, there are some things, like global gconf keys that will differ
12:46	because they are in /etc/gconf
12:46	and /etc in the chroot is different than /etc on the server
12:46	<roasted_> so I need to edit /etc/skel in the chroot
12:46	<Gadi> no
12:47	you will find when you do that, nothing will change
12:47	<roasted_> Well, it worked on thin clients. I thought it would work on fat clients too.
12:47	<Gadi> can you give an example of some customization that is not working on the fat client?
12:48	<roasted_> So how would I accomplish the same task with fat clients?
12:48	everything
12:48	it just doesnt pull anything I customized
12:48	<Gadi> for kicks, give me one
12:48	:)
12:48	<alkisg> roasted_: in this example, where did I specify "thin" or "fat"?
12:48	# touch /etc/skel/hello
12:48	# adduser test
12:48	Adding user `test' ...
12:48	# ls /home/test/
12:48	examples.desktop hello
12:48	<roasted_> background image, links to network shares, desktop icons, specific settings for applications (we default libre office to save in MS Office format)
12:48	<Gadi> wait wait
12:49	<roasted_> alkisg: I'm lost
12:49	this fat client thing is hurting my head.
12:49	thin clients seem so much easier...
12:49	<alkisg> roasted_: the /etc/skel is applied when you add a user. There's nothing thin, far, or LTSP specific about that.
12:49	It's just unix
12:50	Add a user and run `ls /home/username`. Are the skel files there?
12:50	That's what the example says. Not mentioning thin, fat, or ltsp.
12:54	Nick change: evil_root -> zz_evil_root
12:58	<roasted_> sorry, phone rang
12:59	alkisg: I'm pretty sure /etc/skel have no bearing when you ADD a user.
12:59	alkisg: I thought it was when a user logs in who doesnt already have a profile
12:59	<alkisg> roasted_: the example above is from a test I did before pasting
12:59	So I'm pretty sure it worked, because it was a test
12:59	<roasted_> alkisg: are you telling me the way I have been doing it should work?
12:59	or am I not following
13:00	<alkisg> I'm telling you what Gadi said too. That /etc/skel is applied when you add a user.
13:00	Not when the user logs in.
13:00	<roasted_> So how would that work for domain users?
13:00	domain users don't exist on the LTSP server.
13:00	So when they log in, clearly then they would get the profile.
13:00	<alkisg> Ah, now that's some good info
13:00	So you're using something non-standard that copies /etc/skel on login?
13:01	What software is that you're using?
13:01	<roasted_> likewise open
13:01	<alkisg> Right
13:01	So why were we talking all the time without that info?
13:01	<roasted_> I have no idea. my head hurts. :(
13:01	<Gadi> likewise open works the same way,btw
13:02	<roasted_> I just had a massive project dumped on my head and it's a little stressful right now.
13:02	Which is basically, get this LTSP running yesterday.
13:02	<Gadi> it doesn't manage "profiles" or anything - just authenticates against AD
13:02	<roasted_> and we don't have the RAM for hte server, so we need to use fat clients, whcih is proving to be a little different.
13:02	<Gadi> and creates a new homedir if none exists
13:02	<roasted_> Gadi: right.
13:02	Right.
13:02	When it gets its new home dir, it copies from /etc/skel
13:02	<Gadi> right - but only the very first time the user logs in
13:03	<roasted_> right
13:03	<Gadi> not every time
13:03	it is like pam_mkhomedir
13:03	<roasted_> so if I need to edit /etc/skel, I need to wipe the profiles so everybody re-generates the new profile.
13:03	<Gadi> well, if you wipe their home directory, you wipe their files, too
13:03	but yeah
13:03	:)
13:03	<roasted_> Gadi: There's no files here. Everybody works from a file server.
13:03	<Gadi> ok
13:04	<roasted_> So I can delete as I wish. :D
13:04	so let's take it back a notch
13:04	and relapse the same question
13:04	<alkisg> Gadi: likewise runs with pam? So, it'll run on the server, when someone tries to login from a fat client?
13:04	Or it won't run at all, since it's not installed in the chroot?
13:04	<Gadi> yup
13:04	<roasted_> likewise open. edubuntu 10.10. ltsp. fat clients. I need to customize the profile. what do I edit?
13:04	<Gadi> no, it runs from pam on the server
13:04	<alkisg> OK
13:05	<Gadi> creates the home dir on the server
13:05	from /etc/skel on the server
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13:05	<roasted_> so if I edit /etc/skel, it should work
13:05	whether fat or thin
13:05	<Gadi> if you edit /etc/skel and the user who logs in has no home dir, yes
13:05	it will create a new homedir from /etc/skel
13:05	<roasted_> okay
13:05	so what the heck did I do wrong
13:05	well
13:05	hold htat thought
13:05	gadi
13:06	is what you just told me true for LOCAL users AND domain users
13:06	<Gadi> yes
13:06	<roasted_> because I am TESTING with local users at th emoment, but I will have this box on the domain tomorrow.
13:06	Okay.
13:06	So I screwed up somewhere.
13:06	<Gadi> local to the server,right?
13:06	<roasted_> yes
13:06	<Gadi> good
13:06	<roasted_> physically at the server - sys - admin - users and groups - add - test1, test2, test3
13:06	then on fat client, log in as test 1 test 2 test 3 on the 3 clients I have
13:06	<Gadi> ok, when you log in at a fat client as one of the local users....
13:07	do you see any of the files you put in /etc/skel in your homedir?
13:07	<roasted_> logging in now
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13:07	<roasted_> didnt work
13:07	nothing
13:08	now wait
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13:08	<roasted_> I created the local users after creating the skel prof
13:08	I bet thats why...
13:08	<Gadi> coorect
13:08	<roasted_> local users copies from /etc/skel RIGHT then
13:08	domain users copies from /etc/skel upon login
13:08	<Gadi> correct
13:08	<roasted_> RIGHT then as in, during user creation
13:08	gadi
13:08	alkisg:
13:08	why are you guys so smart
13:08	seriously. stop it.
13:09	<Gadi> roasted_: just as an fyi and not to blow your brain....
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13:09	<Gadi> there is a pam module called pam_mkhomedir that is used in Linux to auto-create homedirs for Linux users when no homedir exists
13:09	<roasted_> what does pam stand for again?
13:09	<Gadi> pluggable authentication mechanism
13:10	it is the authentication system used on Linux systems
13:10	and it is modular and stackable, which means you can have different auth mechanisms working at the same time
13:11	when you create a new local user, by default, it will create a homedir for it
13:11	that's why it pulls from /etc/skel AT THAT TIME
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13:12	<Gadi> as an aside: /etc/skel is a good place for profiles IF YOU INTEND TO BLOW AWAY HOMEDIRS WHEN YOU UPDATE THE PROFILE
13:12	just keep that in mind
13:13	it sounds like for your need, it will work well
13:13	and with that, I am off to race a school bus of my own.... well, of my kids....
13:13	:)
13:13	cheers
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13:22	<abeehc> anyone ever get this message? my clients log out immediately if you click the panel... (gnome-panel:15107): WARNING : Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: Connection refused
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13:33	<roasted_> java hates me
13:34	<abeehc> dbus hates me
13:34	<roasted_> seems as if I need java 6 for libreoffice
13:34	but I have java 6 installed
13:37	<abeehc> I can't recall are you ubuntu or..
13:37	<roasted_> I am
13:37	I'm trying something else
13:38	<abeehc> I do ubuntu-restricted-extras in the chroot
13:38	<roasted_> I installed via deb package before. They have a PPA for it now
13:38	<abeehc> maybe overkill but seems to work
13:38	you gotta check alternatives as far as java goes too maybe
13:38	<roasted_> Im getting an error though
13:38	for dependency problems
13:38	ehh
13:40	just trying restricted extras now
13:40	<abeehc> like which
13:40	word
13:40	<roasted_> openjdk-6
13:40	or some crap. I don't know.
13:40	I need a beer and sleep so badly
13:40	<abeehc> same; could be libre office works with that
13:40	<roasted_> and I still have 2 clients to go to tonight
13:40	<abeehc> but i think you want to make sure the sun one is installed
13:40	<roasted_> libre office requires 6, but that's what I had.
13:41	so I got a little confused by it
13:41	<abeehc> openjdk isn't sun's though
13:41	iirc
13:41	<roasted_> It's hard doing this all by terminal too. I got too used to using the software center.
13:41	RIght.
13:41	I wondered that too
13:41	I did select during the edubuntu install to install all of the extras and stuff.
13:41	Not sure if that's part of it or what.
13:41	<abeehc> hmm
13:43	<roasted_> still got the same error
13:43	I might punch a child. just saying.
13:43	errors were encountered while processing: ca-certificiates-java, openjdk6-jre-headless, openjd-6-jre, and a bunch of other openjdk-6-stuff
13:45	can I just remove them all?
13:45	ah why not...
13:45	ha. broken packages.
13:49	java killed ltsp
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23:24	<the_5th_wheel> Morning people. I have installed ltsp onto some new hardware, and I havent used ltsp since ubuntu 8.04. My terminals run a smidge slow even though I have a much more powerfull server than last time (32gb ram, 14ksas drives, 2 x 6core Xeon processors
23:24	It would seem that the actual boot images have become huge. like 600 mb
23:24	is this nromal
23:25	*normal
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00:00	--- Wed Mar 23 2011