IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 5 March 2014   (all times are UTC)

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05:26
<cyberorg>
alkisg, hi, wanted some opinions :) how many fat client can one server with giga lan work with optimally?
05:28
<alkisg>
Hi cyberorg, there's a lot of caching locally if the clients have enough ram
05:28
So after the first launch of programs, the other launches are fast even on low speed networks
05:29
So let's say 10-30 for a single nic server, depending on what the users think of "fast" too...
05:29
But one can easily add more NICs or more NBD servers
05:29
<cyberorg>
i was guessing about 100 client per server
05:29
<alkisg>
(or aoe etc)
05:29
Opening libreoffice => 120 MB traffic
05:31
<cyberorg>
for multiple NIC, they would have to be in different network, right?
05:32
<alkisg>
No, multiple nics, one IP: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Trunking
05:33
<cyberorg>
ok, few years back bonding didn't well, will give that a try again
05:34
<alkisg>
Also use pci-e NICs, not PCI
05:35
<cyberorg>
we were using onboad NICs, not sure if they were pci-e
05:37
<alkisg>
They're pci-e nowadays, but one PCI and others PCI-e is also fine
05:38
i(the pci bus limits network traffic for multiple NICs, while for one it's fine)
05:41
<Ark74>
alkisg, so if i set several PCI NIC, only one will work?
05:42
i wasn't aware of that
05:42
<alkisg>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bit_rates#Computer_buses
05:42
PCI 32-bit/33 MHz 1,067 Mbit/s
05:42
<cyberorg>
alkisg, ok thanks, will pick your brain some more if we go ahead with this project, plan is to have 500+ fat clients
05:43
<alkisg>
!local-boot
05:43
<ltsp`>
local-boot: If you want LTSP fat clients on a low-speed network, you can put i386.img on e.g. C:\Boot\LTSP\i386.img and use this command line in pxelinux.cfg: APPEND ro initrd=ltsp/i386/initrd.img init=/sbin/init-ltsp root=/dev/sda1 rootflags=ro loop=/Boot/LTSP/i386.img; IPAPPEND 3
05:44
<alkisg>
cyberorg: ^
05:44
Keep that in mind too, to have a bit of local storage
05:45
<Ark74>
ohh!
05:45
alkisg, thanks to point it out ;)
05:46
<alkisg>
np
05:47
<cyberorg>
alkisg, i know about that, we also have nicer alternative to that provided by kiwi http://doc.opensuse.org/projects/kiwi/doc/#chap.pxe
05:48
<alkisg>
cyberorg: what nicer alternative?
05:48* alkisg wants to explore dmcache/bcache to do this automatically while the client is online...
05:48
<alkisg>
Without wasting any additional bandwidth at all
05:50* alkisg waves, bb in 1h
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05:51
<cyberorg>
i saw you mention inconvenience of copying image file to all the client, kiwi provides deploying the image, set up rw, either local partitions or nbd/aoe/nfs
06:20work_alkisg is now known as alkisg
06:20
<alkisg>
nbd/aoe/nfs don't need deploying...
06:21
Deploying the image locally can be done with 1 command from epoptes, unrelated to the distro in use
06:22
The challenge here is to use dmcache/bcache to cache the image locally, and automatically, without wasting any additional network bandwidth at all
06:23
vagrantc: we still have months before jessie feature freeze, right? So, we do have time for more ltsp 5.5.x releases?
06:26
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTM4ODA
06:34
<cyberorg>
alkisg, 1 command from epoptes for each client, deploying over pxe mean that if the local image is out of date it gets deployed again from the server
06:35
<alkisg>
1 command for all clients, you can select all of them
06:35
<cyberorg>
alkisg, didn't quite understand how bcache would help
06:35
<alkisg>
Basically, `dd if=/dev/nbd0 of=/path/to/local/image`
06:35
bcache, dmcache, enhanceio etc are caching mechanisms,
06:36
which mostly target caching to small SSD disks to speed up slower but bigger conventional disks
06:36
Our needs are a bit similar, we want to cache all the data we read from the network, locally, so that next time the client needs them, it will read them locally
06:36
So, for example, a client boot from NBD or AOE as usual,
06:36
it checks its local disk and finds no cache. It creates one
06:37
While booting, it reads 50 mb from that NBD image. Afterwards, when the user launches libreoffice, it reads another 120 mb because it's a fat client
06:37
The client writes those 170 MB to its local cache.
06:38
Whenever it needs them again, e.g. while booting next time, or launching libreoffice again, it reads them locally
06:38
At some point in the future, the NBD image gets updated
06:38
The client then discards the local cache and creates a new one
06:38
So, this results in being able to have 500+ fat clients on a single NIC...
06:38
Without having to deploy any image at all
06:40
<cyberorg>
idea of pxe deployment is similar, first boot the image is written to local disk, all consequent boots happens locally, if the image on the server gets updated then the local image is written again
06:41
<alkisg>
If the image is 1 GB, and you have 500 clients, you need 1 day to boot them...
06:41
A better option would be to copy the image while the client is already booted with the older local image
06:43
<cyberorg>
yeah that would make updating image while users are still working and next boot they'd have new one
06:43
<alkisg>
Right
06:43
But bcache makes all this useless, it's much better and requires no additional bandwidth
06:45
<cyberorg>
how will that help with when booting 500 clients with 1gb image for the first time?
06:45
<alkisg>
The clients only need 50 mb to boot, not 1 GB
06:46
So they'll read 50 MB, and that will get cached locally
06:46
If they ever read e.g. /usr/share/rare-program, then that will be cached too, if not, it won't,
06:46
while with transferring all the squashfs image, you transfer it even if you don't need it
06:47
<cyberorg>
are you sure fat client needs just 50M to boot to full desktop?
06:48
<alkisg>
Yes
06:48
To LDM
06:49
Anyways, bcache would help all ltsp users, but to be honest, for 500 clients I'd probably go for another file system that would support replication
06:49
xnbd, crfs, dunno
06:50
So that it's no longer server-based, but clients help in replication too
06:59
(08:42:00 πμ) alkisg: A better option would be to copy the image while the client is already booted with the older local image
06:59
==> for example, if you use p2p technology there, like torrents, the image would get replicated a *lot* sooner
06:59
<cyberorg>
i like the idea of using dm-cache to cache locally
07:01
<alkisg>
It should also be easy to write a 'caching-nbd-client' that would add caching to nbd-client... and maybe even send it upstream, many people could need that
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07:03
<alkisg>
xnbd appears very active... https://bitbucket.org/hirofuchi/xnbd/commits/all maybe they could add that feature
07:06
This sounds more promising, for 500 clients: http://lab.openslx.org/projects/dnbd/wiki
07:09
<cyberorg>
looks really interesting :)
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07:15
<cyberorg>
hmm last commit on dnbd was in 2009
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08:06
<vagrantc>
alkisg: yeah, there's time for more 5.5.x ...
08:06
as far as i'm concerned
08:07
i assumed there would be, although work on ltsp6 needs to be ramped up a bit
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08:10
<markosu>
I have problem. I try to figure out how to get guest autologin working (kiosk mode)? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/AutoLoginFeatures
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08:11
<vagrantc>
markosu: what have you tried, what hasn't worked?
08:11
<markosu>
yep, I tried
08:12
What config I have to enable?
08:12
<vagrantc>
depends on what your goal is
08:13
<markosu>
goal is to get terminals autologin with guestaccounts
08:13
Do I need still add user fot LTS.conf?
08:13
<vagrantc>
you want them to press a button to log in, or you want them to automatically log in?
08:14
<markosu>
automatically log in would be the best option
08:14
<vagrantc>
with either feature, it will by default attempt to log in as thee username with the password as the hostname ...
08:14
<markosu>
So I have add user for LTS.conf?
08:14
<vagrantc>
i.e. if the hostname is ltsp123, it will try to log in as user ltsp123, with password ltsp123
08:14
yes, the server needs to have the users present.
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08:15
<vagrantc>
you'll probably see failed login attempts in your logs
08:16
<markosu>
ok, I was wondering that server generate automatic users for terminals
08:17
<alkisg>
"Autologin" is a different concept from "kiosk"
08:17
<markosu>
ok
08:17
<alkisg>
LTSP does support both
08:17
<vagrantc>
the kiosk feature runs everything locally ... kind of like a limited purpose fatclient
08:18
markosu: hope that helps. good luck!
08:18* vagrantc waves
08:18
<markosu>
My goal is to setup LTSP-PNP system for older people without user account.
08:18
thanks
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08:19
<markosu>
When they logout everything information (browser history) should be wiped
08:20
<alkisg>
That's autologin plus a script like this: http://sourceforge.net/p/ltsp/mailman/ltsp-discuss/thread/1310986533.1915.3.camel@alkis/
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08:22
<markosu>
thx
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10:00
<cyberorg>
alkisg, http://sourceforge.net/p/cyberorg-home/code/ci/master/tree/dm-cached-nbd/dm-cached-nbd.sh
10:01
<alkisg>
cyberorg: does it work?
10:01
You can limit the bandwidth to the client to e.g. 1mbps to test better...
10:02
<cyberorg>
alkisg, that is just a test script, tried it on this machine works
10:02
<alkisg>
If, on the second boot, it goes fast on 1 mbps, then it works fine! :)
10:02
<cyberorg>
would it be possible to add something like that to can you try something with that to init-ltsp.d scripts
10:02
alkisg, haven't tested with ltsp setup, just standalone pc
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10:03
<alkisg>
I think it would go to initramfs, not to init-ltsp.d
10:04
aufs/overlayfs would go on top of that
10:05
<cyberorg>
that is the part i cannot do :)
10:06
<alkisg>
That's distro-specific
10:06
Ah, you mean because it would be handled by kiwi code and not ltsp code?
10:07
<cyberorg>
yes and also because i wouldn't know how to code that, small bits of script like this ok :)
10:08
will file enhancement bug for kiwi, lets see what schaefi thinks about it
10:09* alkisg hopes we'll be able to do the aufs/overlayfs thing from init-ltsp.d in the future... so that there's no need for ltsp code in the initramfs at all
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10:10
<cyberorg>
that would be ideal
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11:25
<alkisg>
Using named NBD exports from kvm: kvm -hda nbd:localhost:10809:exportname=/opt/ltsp/i386 -cdrom /usr/lib/grub-rescue/grub-rescue-cdrom.iso -boot d
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11:40
<work_alkisg>
xnbd-server --proxy [options] remote_host remote_port cache_disk_path cache_bitmap_path control_socket_path
11:40
...cache_disk_path... :)
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15:04
<joe_sizlack>
anyone using puppet and/or func with their ltsp setups?
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16:10
<mealstro1>
hi
16:10mealstro1 is now known as mealstrom
16:13
<mealstrom>
thats better. I've got some interesting problem with ltsp-server and thin client. Im using Ubuntu 12.04.04 i686. When i'm installing program on clients image --(chroot) -- this program didnt apears at links. If i launch it from terminal like ltsp-localapp blabla -- thats ok.
16:13
there is this program at ltsp.conf at LOCAL_APPS variable
16:13
any idea?
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16:19
<hydruid>
What OS supports LTSP clients the best?
16:19
I know that is a broad question, but I just deployed on about 5 computers and all of them seem to be having issues, used Ubuntu 12.04 as the host.
16:26
<khildin>
joe_sizlack, interesting thought.... can you elaborate?
16:29
<hydruid>
Also is there a recommendation for using the server OS or a desktop OS?
16:34
<khildin>
hydruid, you want a graphical UI for your clients?... then it is self explaining.. :)
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16:35
<hydruid>
khildin: they are basically just going to rdesktop to a windows box
16:35
<khildin>
mealstrom, hydruid ... ask the boss... he just joined... ;)
16:36
<hydruid>
khildin: lol in the past I used the desktop version of Ubuntu and didn't run into many issues....this time I used the server version and had issues, going to try the desktop version out in just a bit :)
16:36
alkisg_web: good morning :)
16:36
<khildin>
hydruid, wasn't there an option to immediately redirect to rdesktop?
16:36
<alkisg_web>
Good afternoon :)
16:36
<hydruid>
khildin: sure but I wanted it to be automatic
16:37
alkisg_web: I am having a ton of random issues with clients (black screen, freezes, and etc.) but I used the server version of Ubuntu as the host, does it make more sense to use the desktop version of Ubuntu instead?
16:38
<khildin>
I take it you did have a look at TSP wiki? http://wiki.ltsp.org/wiki/Integration
16:38
LTSP*
16:39
<alkisg_web>
Client issues are usually because of network issues or because of graphics driver issues... so no, the desktop or server variant doesn't matter much.
16:39
The kernel/xorg packages do matter...
16:39
<hydruid>
khildin: yes I've seen that, I actually setup an rdesktop screen using the menu option
16:39
<alkisg_web>
So stress your network and test with a live cd/usb stick too
16:40
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: good to know....
16:40
alkisg_web: network is very small, at the main site here, they have 5 computers that are plugged into the server switch, which is 10Gbe
16:40
the network is rock solid, but I think it falls back to what you said, graphic driver issues
16:41
the clients they gave me to test are p4 single core
16:41
lol
16:41
<alkisg_web>
p4 with 256 ram => ok thin clients, with 1gb ram => ok fat clients
16:41
<khildin>
hydruid, a p4 should be more than sufficient
16:41
<hydruid>
I was thinking about trying debian instead, as it might have better support with older hardwaer
16:42
*hardware
16:42
<alkisg_web>
What graphics card? lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA, on the client
16:42
<khildin>
although a P4 consumes a ton of energy.... :-/
16:42
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: I got kicked out of the lab lol but I will try that in a bit
16:42
I tried setting XSERVER = vga
16:43
<alkisg_web>
12.04 supports p4 just fine. 14.04 has issues with sis and s3virge drivers.
16:43
There's no vga driver
16:43
<hydruid>
ohhh that is no longer a valid option?
16:43
<alkisg_web>
I don't think it ever was
16:43
XSERVER=vesa...
16:43
<khildin>
s3virge... that is like.... ancient...
16:44
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: ty I will see if that helps
16:44
<alkisg_web>
We still have a lot of 1998-2000 graphics cards here... hundreds of them
16:44
<hydruid>
most of the clients show the ubuntu splash screen, sit there for a few seconds, then go black
16:44
<khildin>
alkisg_web, ever tried a larger setup using RPI as client?
16:45
<alkisg_web>
We don't buy thin clients, we only use old pcs as thin clients. We buy fat clients instead...
16:45
pi is good only as a thin client...
16:45
<khildin>
yes... but they ar cheap and use very littly powr
16:45
<hydruid>
Is Sound_Daemon = false still valid?
16:48
<alkisg_web>
khildin: there are quad core arm devices that are suitable for fat clients and also are cheap and waste little power...
16:49
hydruid: SOUND=False
16:49
<khildin>
Sound_Daemon: Values are esd, nasd, and pulse (default).
16:50
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: cool ty, do I need to install the vesa driver in the chroot?
16:52
<alkisg_web>
No, but you shouldn't have to use the vesa driver anyway
16:55
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: gotcha ty....so it's recommended to identify the video card and then set XSERVER to match if it the automatic config doesn't work?
16:55
<alkisg_web>
No, automatic config usually works fine
16:55
The problem is in the driver version
16:56
So if you have graphics issues, you need to find a kernel/xorg combination where that card works fine
16:56
<hydruid>
I see
16:56
<alkisg_web>
E.g. intels 8xx worked best in ubuntu 9.04, the completely broke in 10.04, and since 12.04 they mostly work, with rare crashes
16:57
<hydruid>
fun
16:57
lol
16:57
<alkisg_web>
That's not an Ubuntu issue, it's an upstream issue, so the same happens in all distros, at the respective versions...
16:57vmlintu has left IRC (vmlintu!~vmlintu@cs181214103.pp.htv.fi, Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
16:58
<alkisg_web>
The good thing with Ubuntu LTS editions is that it's very easy to try different kernels/xorg versions
16:58
xserver-xorg-lts-saucy etc
16:58
And by installing the debian 486 kernel one can support even non-pae clients...
16:59
So even P3's are fine
17:08
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: okay was able to run that command
17:08
looks like a radeon, RC410
17:09
<alkisg_web>
pci id?
17:09
<hydruid>
subsystem: intel corp device {8086:d600}
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17:09
<alkisg_web>
Also verify that you run that locally and not on the server
17:09
!localxterm
17:09
<ltsp`>
localxterm: Any applications that you launch on a thin client actually runs on the server, not on the client itself. If you want to open a program on the client locally, you can type 'ltsp-localapps <program>' in a run dialog or in a terminal. For example, 'ltsp-localapps xterm' to open a terminal running on the client.
17:09
<hydruid>
it is local
17:10
radeon xpress 200/1100 is what it is
17:10
and the xorg error was = no screens found
17:10
let me see if I can find the pci id
17:11
<alkisg_web>
lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA
17:13
Also "no screens found", is that with an empty lts.conf?
17:14
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: yes I found it, pci id is: 01:05.0
17:14
<alkisg_web>
1234:5678
17:14
What you pasted is not a pci id
17:15
~$ lspci -nn -k | grep -A 2 VGA
17:15
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller [8086:29c2] (rev 10)
17:15
<hydruid>
ohhhh I see
17:15
<alkisg_web>
The pci id is 8086:29c2
17:15
And the kernel driver in use should say radeon
17:15
<hydruid>
1002:5a61
17:16
alkisg_web: it does that say that for the kernel driver
17:16
<alkisg_web>
And what's the output of: getltscfg -a
17:16
locally
17:16
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: lts.conf is not blank......
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17:18
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: it printed the contents of lts.conf
17:18
<alkisg_web>
...which are..?
17:19
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: http://pastebin.com/PCFqR2Zh
17:22
<alkisg_web>
You forced vesa, so it might be why it can't find any screens.
17:22
<hydruid>
let me try without
17:22
<mealstrom>
hydruid: tnx )) , havant been here for ages.
17:22
<alkisg_web>
Try with an empty lts.conf
17:22
Completely empty
17:22
<hydruid>
kk
17:22
do I have to ltsp-update-image after lts.conf changes?
17:23
<alkisg_web>
Not if you change the one in tftp...
17:23
<mealstrom>
alkisg_web: I've got some interesting problem with ltsp-server and thin client. Im using Ubuntu 12.04.04 i686. When i'm installing program on clients image --(chroot) -- this program didnt apears at links. If i launch it from terminal like ltsp-localapp blabla -- thats ok. there is this program at ltsp.conf at LOCAL_APPS variable. any idea?
17:24
<alkisg_web>
You need LOCAL_APPS_MENU etc, check the lts.conf manpage
17:26
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: cheers it worked!
17:29
alkisg_web: ty vm
17:29
alkisg_web: next question :0
17:30
alkisg_web: on the ubuntu splash screen, if I don't hit ESC on the keyboard, the screen goes black and nothing happens
17:30
if I do hit ESC, then it works perfectly
17:30
<alkisg_web>
!quiet-splash
17:30
<ltsp`>
quiet-splash: to disable the splash screen in Ubuntu, in order to see any boot error messages, run sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default and remove quiet splash plymouth:force-splash vt.handoff=7
17:30
<alkisg_web>
So remove all those permanately :)
17:31
*permanently
17:31
<hydruid>
alkisg_web: ty!
17:31
alkisg_web: I tried that but missed the plymouth
17:33
alkisg_web: again ty very much, I owe you 500 beers
17:34
<alkisg_web>
:) /me will get fat and drunk
17:35
<hydruid>
lol
17:39
<ogra>
just open a bar :)
17:39
<hydruid>
:P
17:41
<mealstrom>
alkisg_web: heh, as always forget about enabling local_apps
17:43
<effenberg>
free beer?
17:44* alkisg_web waves
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17:48
<mealstrom>
someone from Ukraine or Russian?
17:51Phantomas has joined IRC (Phantomas!~Phantomas@ubuntu/member/phantomas)
17:52
<hydruid>
effenberg: you know it!
17:56
<PhoenixSTF>
hello guys I am trying to setup a ltsp on a KVM virtmachine, its is Xubuntu amd64, I can boot with a thin client but console 7 is all black while other have normal CLI login screen, anyone knows how to fix this?
17:59hydruid has left IRC (hydruid!~hydruid@mail.twinriversheadstart.com, Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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18:05
<mealstrom>
PhoenixSTF: are you using server edition ?
18:06
<PhoenixSTF>
mealstrom, no just Xubuntu 13.10
18:06
with ltsp-standalone
18:06
mealstrom, desktop why should I user server?
18:08
<alkisg>
PhoenixSTF: put these in your lts.conf:
18:08
[Default]
18:08
SCREEN_02=shell
18:08
SCREEN_07=ldm
18:08
Then reboot client and check your xorg logs from screen 02
18:08
Also do this:
18:08
!quiet-splash
18:08
<ltsp`>
quiet-splash: to disable the splash screen in Ubuntu, in order to see any boot error messages, run sudo gedit /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.cfg/default and remove quiet splash plymouth:force-splash vt.handoff=7
18:10
<PhoenixSTF>
alkisg, update image?
18:14alkisg has left IRC (alkisg!~alkisg@ubuntu/member/alkisg, Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
18:14
<PhoenixSTF>
crap it stops at saned
18:14alkisg has joined IRC (alkisg!~alkisg@ubuntu/member/alkisg)
18:15
<PhoenixSTF>
alkisg, it stops at saned disabled; edit /etc.....
18:15
nbd0 unkown partition taqble
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18:17
<alkisg1>
PhoenixSTF: did you do the lts.conf changes? if yes, press alt+ctrl+f2...
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18:18
<PhoenixSTF>
yes I am there
18:18
<alkisg>
getltscfg -a
18:18
Do you see your lts.conf settings with that command?
18:18
<PhoenixSTF>
yes
18:19
<alkisg>
And your lts.conf *only* has SCREEN_02 and SCREEN_07?
18:19
<PhoenixSTF>
nop
18:19
<alkisg>
Put only those, to make sure you don't break the booting with settings from lts.conf
18:19
Then check the output of this command: lspci -nn -k | grep -A2 VGA
18:19
on the client
18:19
<PhoenixSTF>
RM_SYSTEM_SERVICES=2dnsmasq nbd-server nfs-kernel-server ssh-whopsie"
18:20
so I disable all extras
18:20
<alkisg>
OK, those shouldn't matter
18:20
As long as you don't have things like XSERVER=vesa, autologin etc
18:21
<PhoenixSTF>
no none of whose only something with DIRECTX
18:21
<alkisg>
What's the output of the lspci command above?
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18:22
<PhoenixSTF>
no such pci access methos
18:22
<alkisg>
Did you make a typo?
18:23
stgraber: if you sync ltsp from debian, it'd be nice if you also synced the last 2 commits from ltsp-trunk
18:23
<PhoenixSTF>
yes I did pt keyboard to us :(
18:24
VGA compatible cirrus logic GD 3446
18:24
*5446
18:24
<alkisg>
That's the server
18:24
Not the client
18:24
Or are you using a VM for a client?
18:24
<PhoenixSTF>
yes I am
18:24* vagrantc looks at ltsp-trunk
18:25
<alkisg>
Try with kvm -vga vmware. Or with a real client.
18:26
<PhoenixSTF>
-_-
18:27
seriously so many ours and had to bother you guys just to change the video...
18:27
*hours
18:27
<alkisg>
:)
18:27
<PhoenixSTF>
thanks m8
18:27
really sorry
18:27
<alkisg>
np
18:28
<vagrantc>
alkisg: so, should i merge those two patches from ltsp-trunk for debian as well?
18:28
i guess one is ubuntu-specific...
18:28
<alkisg>
vagrantc: one of them is ubuntu-only,
18:28
<PhoenixSTF>
btw anyone got a report on savings with Greek schools change to LTSP?
18:28
<alkisg>
and the other one is for udhcpc, which debian users don't use much...
18:28
<vagrantc>
right
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18:28
<alkisg>
vagrantc: so I don't think there's any hurry to upload them to debian. And the timeout only affects 10% of the users
18:29
PhoenixSTF: monetary savings?
18:29
<vagrantc>
alkisg: would probably be good to get into jessie sometime in the next few months
18:29
<alkisg>
We'll have more things to upload till then :)
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18:30
<vagrantc>
i've been thinking about rewriting the debian-installer support a bit lately, so if i do some of that, might be worth redoing
18:30
worth another upload
18:31
stgraber: i've been thinking about making the debian-installer support more plugin based or something, to reduce the need for us to diverge so much
18:31
stgraber: plugins, or overridable functions, or whatever.
18:33* vagrantc notes that https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp is kind of messed up
18:37
<alkisg>
vagrantc: since the stackoverflow attempt wasn't successful, do you think we should enable answers in https://launchpad.net/ltsp ?
18:37
Like https://answers.launchpad.net/epoptes ?
18:37* alkisg doesn't like mailing lists much, they're not searchable/linkable etc
18:38
<vagrantc>
i find forums to be impossible to find anything useful
18:38
but i am not the target audience
18:38
i won't likely be actively involved either way
18:39
<alkisg>
It's not forums, it's questions
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18:39
<vagrantc>
it's all webbity
18:40
<alkisg>
The idea is to have a place where the devs can answer questions and then reuse their answers
18:40
<vagrantc>
but at least the launchpad questions stuff sends me emails
18:40
<alkisg>
Reusing stuff is very difficult in mailing lists...
18:40
<vagrantc>
so it's a dynamically generated FAQ, essentially
18:40
?
18:41
<alkisg>
Pretty similar, yeah
18:41* vagrantc looks at the web ui
18:41
<alkisg>
Check https://answers.launchpad.net/epoptes as an example
18:42* vagrantc finds it funny that answers.launchpad.net is titled "questions"
18:42
<vagrantc>
it seems like just another bug reporting sort of interface...
18:43
with different statuses than you'd see for bug reports
18:43
<alkisg>
Right, the main difference is the allowed subjects
18:43
One can't open an ltsp bug report on "please advice what server to buy"
18:43
But he can open a question for that
18:44
stackexchange does have a better interface for questions
18:44
But it appears not enough people were interested...
18:45
<vagrantc>
right
18:45
i don't see much problem with enabling answers.launchpad.net for ltsp ... as long as people can opt-out of the responses
18:46
<alkisg>
But you're not going to use it, right?
18:46
<vagrantc>
it depends... i do read the epoptes generated emails
18:46
<alkisg>
(I think it's possible to answer by email too)
18:47
<vagrantc>
i'd at least know what sort of questions people were asking
18:47
<alkisg>
OK, let's think it over for a few days, it's very easy to enable it but I think it's a bit hard to disable it afterwards
18:47
<vagrantc>
heh
18:48
you can configure which groups get the emails? if it was all the ~ltsp-maintainers or whatever group then i think we should ask them.
18:49
<alkisg>
I think it supports setting the "answers contact"
18:49
We can leave that empty to notify noone by default, or put ltsp-upstream there, etc
18:49
The ubuntu-specific answers are automatically already enabled
18:50
https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp
18:50
https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltspfs, ldm etc
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18:56
<vagrantc>
alkisg: well, i'm ok with it, and would actually like to get the emails... unless it overwhelms me.
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19:05
<Leolo_3>
switch_root: failed to unlink unionfs: Directory not empty
19:05
is that ^^ something I should worry about?
19:08
<alkisg>
What distro/version is that?
19:09
<Leolo_3>
CentOS 6
19:10
LTSP 5.4
19:10
<alkisg>
It does sound like something you should report to the distro maintainers...
19:11
Does it still work after that?
19:11
<Leolo_3>
still works
19:12
I don't get that message when I boot the distro "normally"
19:12
and CentOS doesn't have a maintainer for LTSP, from what I understand
19:14
<alkisg>
Someone should pick up, then... :)
19:16
<PhoenixSTF>
alkisg, sorry m8 to bother again, but I have been trying to login and it stucks there trying to load
19:16
<alkisg>
Try ssh <user>@server from screen02
19:16
Replace user, leave server exactly as it is
19:16
Don't put ip, don't change the hostname
19:18
<PhoenixSTF>
ok I added a user with root
19:18
but cannot login with it
19:18
<alkisg>
You do add the user to the server, not to the chroot, right?
19:19
<PhoenixSTF>
yes with chroot
19:19
let me try and reboot
19:19
about befora yes monetary savings
19:20
<alkisg>
PhoenixSTF: *don't* add the user to the chroot
19:20
Add the user to the server
19:20
<PhoenixSTF>
ok
19:21
any groups I should add it?
19:21
<alkisg>
No
19:21
<PhoenixSTF>
update-image?
19:22
<alkisg>
no
19:23
<PhoenixSTF>
no joy
19:23
<alkisg>
You can't login with ssh?
19:23
<PhoenixSTF>
with ssh I can with thin client I cannot
19:23
tried on console 1
19:24
<alkisg>
Don't. Try on screen_02=shell
19:24
!screen_02
19:24
<ltsp`>
screen_02: To get a root shell on an Ubuntu thin client: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ClientTroubleshooting#Using_a_shell_SCREEN
19:24
<PhoenixSTF>
ok i am on sroot shell
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19:32
<PhoenixSTF>
is it possible I dont have any desktop environment installed?
19:36
<alkisg>
(09:16:30 μμ) alkisg: Try ssh <user>@server from screen02
19:36
Did that work?
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19:37
<PhoenixSTF>
yes it did
19:39
<alkisg>
OK then, check /usr/share/xsessions in your server
19:41
<PhoenixSTF>
xfce.desktop and xubuntu.desktop
19:41
*
19:42
<alkisg>
So you do have sessions on your server
19:42
Check /var/log/auth.log on your server after an ldm-login try
19:42
<PhoenixSTF>
yes its a normal desktop distro
19:44
there is no ldm-login
19:49
<vmlintu>
alkisg: You mentioned lpxelinux some time ago and I did now some boot tests over HTTP with lpxelinux.0 and it seems to work much better than gpxe/ipxe.. Haven't had a chance to try with a wide range of NICs yet, but at least for now it looks good..
19:51
<alkisg>
Cool, so serving the kernel over http is easier with that :)
19:51
<vagrantc>
whee
19:52
<vmlintu>
alkisg: yes, it loads only lpxelinux.0 over tftp, everything else went over http. I was using now nginx and static files for tests..
19:52
<PhoenixSTF>
alkisg, do you recommend any tutorial to I can try and put it up to work without bothering you too much, I obviously broke something here.
19:53
<alkisg>
vmlintu, vagrantc, we could also dynamically generate pxelinux.cfg/default from lts.conf entries with ltspd!
19:54
PhoenixSTF: I don't know of any tutorials, many exists but I haven't tried any of them recently, except from the ltsp-pnp one which I wrote...
19:56
<vmlintu>
alkisg: yes.. and if it checks for the mac address from pxelinux.cfg/01-<mac>, one can also define kernel parameters for each client..
19:57
<alkisg>
vmlintu: I mean that we no longer will need anything from pxelinux.cfg/*
19:57
All the kernel parameters would go inside lts.conf
19:57
[mac-address]
19:57
KERNEL_CMDLINE="nomodeset"
19:57
And ltspd would translate that to the appropriate pxelinux.cfg/default, which would be the http reply, not a real file...
19:58
<vmlintu>
yes.. we are already got rid of pxelinux.cfg/* with puavo-tftpd and lpxelinux.0 makes it even simpler
19:58
<alkisg>
Is there any need for a custom tftp server, when one is using lpxelinux?
19:58
The only thing downloaded is lpxelinux.0, isn't it?
19:59
*via tftp...
19:59
<vmlintu>
no, tftpd-hpa should be ok if lpxelinux.0 works with all clients
20:00
<vagrantc>
or dnsmasq
20:00
there are clients it doesn't work for?
20:00
alkisg: also, serving up pxelinux.cfg/01-<mac> could be generated and served without it landing with all the fallbacks...
20:01
would be fewer hits to the tftp/http server
20:01
<vmlintu>
I haven't done much testing yet.. earlier when I tried to use the http support in gpxe/ipxe, there were some NICs that didn't work
20:01
<alkisg>
ipxe only supports certain nics, but lpxelinux should support all the ones that offer a pxe stack
20:02
<vmlintu>
I tested with one client that didn't work gpxe and at least it worked now ok, so I'm hopeful
20:02
<alkisg>
So I think only a few broken ones wouldn't work
20:02
<vagrantc>
gpxe isn't still developed, is it?
20:02
<alkisg>
Not really, only ipxe is
20:02
<vagrantc>
right
20:03
<vmlintu>
I took the lpxelinux.0 file from debian experimental packages
20:03
<vagrantc>
hrm.
20:03
need to get that migrating into jessie...
20:04
<vmlintu>
Yes, always serving the 01-<mac> file does speed up things a bit at least with puavo-tftpd
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20:08
<vmlintu>
I'll do probably more testing next week.. I need to find some place that has a wide variety nics to test..
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20:19
<ball>
Good morning!
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20:47
<dead_inside>
morning ball
20:54
<gbaman>
alkisg: can sch-scripts be installed onto a debian server?
21:14
<alkisg>
gbaman: I don't think so
21:14
They also contain a lot of greek settings
21:15
So one shouldn't try to install them. One can try to i18n them though by creating a similar, but changed, package
21:16
<gbaman>
any reason cant run entire thing through a translator?
21:16
<alkisg>
It shouldn't take more than a few hours to translate sch-scripts to english and to make them run in debian...
21:19
<gbaman>
btw, alkisg and vagrantc, the teacher trialing LTSP fat clients on pis for me has uploaded a few videos of his classes trying them out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCxnMZuCyzM#t=616
21:19
<vagrantc>
cool
21:20
<alkisg>
They already have PCs, yet they're starting to use PIs? :D
21:21
<gbaman>
well, in this case, yes
21:21
mainly because they want to make use of applications only available for the pi
21:22
in this case, minecraft Pi edition
21:22
<alkisg>
Isn't that java? shouldn't it run anywhere?
21:22
<gbaman>
no, minecraft pi edition
21:22
<alkisg>
And?
21:23
<gbaman>
custom version of minecraft written by Mojang for the Raspberry pi
21:23
<alkisg>
They re-programmed it without java?
21:23
<gbaman>
based off pocket edition
21:23
<alkisg>
If it's java, it should run anywhere...
21:23
<gbaman>
which is written i think, in C++?
21:23
they dont release the source though
21:23
<alkisg>
I think it would just be a lighter version, in java again
21:23
Runnable anywhere
21:23
<gbaman>
the cool thing they did with minecraft pi edition though was add a nice easy to use api
21:23
<alkisg>
I don't think they'd rewrite minecraft in C++ just for pi
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21:24
<gbaman>
available for any language that supports sockets
21:24
as I said, based off pocket edition (version for IOS and android)
21:24
which was completely rewritten
21:24
but pi edition has an API
21:24
which is rather easy to use in python
21:25
so this teacher is planning next year to move to it to do GCSE CS coursework on
21:25
with minecraft pi..
21:26
the API lets students do stuff like place blocks, get block, move player etc
21:27
So, for him, having 20 pis in the room was going to be a headache for managing their OS, users and most importantly, user files
21:27
seeing as SD cards are nowhere near as reliable and HDDs
21:27
and loosing GCSE CS coursework isnt an option
21:27
<ball>
Can a Pie PXE?
21:28
<gbaman>
no
21:28
but one can put the kernel on the sd card and boot with it
21:28
needs about 30mb of sd card
21:28
<ball>
Does it mount the SD card read-only?
21:28
<gbaman>
yes
21:28
<vagrantc>
there are patches in a u-boot branch to support booting off the network and reading a pxelinux configuration file
21:28
<ball>
That's not too bad then.
21:29
<vagrantc>
although unless you disable localdevs, it'll be writeable to users
21:29
<gbaman>
oops vagrantc
21:30
I am not too worried though
21:30
actually, it is a good thing that they can
21:30
<vagrantc>
yeah, then they can write their own kernel!
21:30
<gbaman>
allows them to swap the config files allowing them to switch between booting off local sd card and network
21:31
which was one thing I did want to talk to you about...
21:31
have I already talked to you about some way to switch them vagrantc?
21:31
<vagrantc>
you just change stuff in config.txt or cmdline.txt
21:32
<gbaman>
yes, but would rather love something like hold down a key on boot?
21:32
it swaps file and reboots?
21:34* alkisg doesn't like promotional programs that only run on selective platforms
21:34
<alkisg>
I'd go for something else for my CS courses if minecraft-pi is only for pi :)
21:35
Fortunately there are many open source programming environments available...
21:35
<gbaman>
but any as cool as Minecraft?
21:35
<alkisg>
Sure, cooler too
21:35
3d in CS was there before minecraft existed
21:35
<vagrantc>
gbaman: i don't think there's anything like a boot menu, no.
21:36
gbaman: you could write a script which does that from the booted system
21:36
and then reboot...
21:36
<gbaman>
perhaps alkisg, this teacher wants to though :)
21:36
vagrantc: what about if the server isnt available?
21:36* ball thinks back to raytracing on an 8 MHz Atari ST.
21:37
<gbaman>
need some way if the student takes it home
21:37
<vagrantc>
gbaman: sounds like you've got some ARM assembling coding to do.
21:37
<alkisg>
The teachers here want windows 7 + ms office 201x + photoshop + corel + ... and the organizations that manage the schools just tell them that they don't have money for those, and to settle with linux
21:37
<vagrantc>
er, assembly
21:38
<gbaman>
kind of guessed that vagrantc :(
21:38
<vagrantc>
maybe C
21:38
<ball>
ARM assembly confused the hell out of me when I first saw it.
21:38
<gbaman>
alkisg: windows and office are the norm here
21:38
<ball>
I was used to implicit destinations for most instructions.
21:38
<gbaman>
this teacher isnt allowed to install linux on those desktop machines
21:38
<ball>
...so seeing three registers for an add instruction for example.
21:39
...was something I wasn't used it.
21:39
<gbaman>
nor is he allowed to plug anything into their school network
21:39
<ball>
s/it/to/
21:39
<vagrantc>
gbaman: you could also do it from the initramfs, if it always boots the same initramfs. i think i already suggested that to you before, now that i think of it... :P
21:39
<alkisg>
We don't allow anyone here to not allow stuff, it's against the laws :)
21:39
<gbaman>
how hard would it be vagrantc?
21:39
liking that alkisg :)
21:40
<vagrantc>
gbaman: i think it would be 3 hard.
21:40
<gbaman>
?
21:40
<alkisg>
On a scale of 10? :P
21:40* vagrantc will not disclose the scale
21:41
<gbaman>
..
21:41
helpful...
21:41
:)
21:41* ball grins
21:41
<vagrantc>
gbaman: i don't know your coding skills to know how difficult it would be.
21:41
<gbaman>
They arent stunning, I am a python guy
21:41
which isnt going to help me much at that level :D
21:41
<vagrantc>
i would think of it as trivial.
21:41* vagrantc wouldn't recommending including the python interpreter in the initramfs
21:42
<ball>
I should probably learn Python at some point, or one of the other trendy new languages.
21:42* vagrantc 's typing is awful lately
21:42
<gbaman>
ha ha vagrantc
21:42
now that would be interesting...
21:43
if you were implementing it vagrantc, how long would it take you?
21:44
<vagrantc>
5-15 minutes
21:44
mostly waiting for the initramfs to build
21:44
<gbaman>
...
21:44
if I asked nicely, might you?
21:44
is a rather key thing for this teacher, some way the kids can take the pis home
21:45
<vagrantc>
so, the whole point of LTSP was to not have an OS install on every machine, right?
21:46
<gbaman>
the sd card image is stored locally so they can take it home if need be
21:46
<vagrantc>
at which point, whhy not just give them each an SD card and have them take it home, plug it in at school, etc. ?
21:46
<gbaman>
having them boot in the classroom though off the server means the teacher can be certain that the correct packages are installed when they are teaching
21:47
<vagrantc>
how can you be sure they're not booted to the SD OS?
21:47
<gbaman>
because it prompts them with a login screen?
21:48
<alkisg>
...write an initramfs script that tries netbooting, and if that fails, boots locally
21:48
<gbaman>
are very different login procedures
21:48
<vagrantc>
hmmm... it'd be a little more code, but something that booted locally if the network didn't tell it to boot to the network would be slick.
21:48
<alkisg>
No need for keypresses etc
21:48* vagrantc and alkisg think alike
21:48
<vagrantc>
now and then
21:48
<alkisg>
The server nbd image can be cached to the sd to make sure it's consistent
21:48
<gbaman>
only slightly creepy...
21:48
although impressive...
21:49
<alkisg>
and easy to maintain (as opposed to local SD installations)
21:49
<gbaman>
well that would be the perfect situation
21:49
is that even possible?
21:49
and it is currently nfs
21:49
<alkisg>
Sure, it's just code
21:49
<vagrantc>
anything not impossible is possible... it's just a question of how much work...
21:50
<gbaman>
thats what I was thinking
21:51
gota admit that would be rather slick if that worked
21:51
<vagrantc>
alkisg has been talking about such setups for a while, in one form or another implemented?
21:52
<gbaman>
I doubt it would be an issue if the teacher was able to run a command every month or 2 that copied the image over to all sd cards?
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21:52
<gbaman>
wait, what happens with logins?
21:52
and files
21:52
<ball>
There's a distinction between what's possible and what's practical.
21:52* vagrantc nods
21:52
<gbaman>
that would normally be stored on the server
21:52
so what happens if a kid changes a file..
21:53
<vagrantc>
if the next 12 generations of humanity all collectively haul on this...
21:53
gbaman: you could exlude some dirs, or make them local only, whatever...
21:53
<alkisg>
The way I've been thinking that is, if the ltsp server is down (or the ltsp client is off-network), a local account would autologin
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21:53
<alkisg>
The local /home would be accessible to all users when online
21:53
<gbaman>
like the sound of that alkisg
21:54
oooo
21:54
<alkisg>
So they could transfer things
21:54
<gbaman>
genius...
21:55* alkisg thinks "LTSP" is not the correct initials anymore for these kinds of setups... :)
21:55
<gbaman>
am guessing though something like that is nowhere near existing..
21:55
<alkisg>
Just a few hours of programming away...
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21:56* vagrantc has been pondering using freedomsponsors.org for some LTSP bounties
21:57
<vagrantc>
but maybe that would ruin everything
21:57
<alkisg>
I think it would help
21:57
<gbaman>
the probability though alkisg of those hours of programming being available any time soon?
21:58
<alkisg>
gbaman: it depends... when are you available? :P
21:58
<gbaman>
:P
21:58
that would require me to know stuff...
21:58
<alkisg>
I'm sure you can learn
21:58
A few years ago I didn't know what ltsp is
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22:00* ball is sadly distracted from a conversation that look interesting.
22:01
<vagrantc>
!arcfour
22:01
<ltsp`>
arcfour: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC4 is an SSH cipher which is more than 2 times faster than the default aes128-ctr. To enable it, set LDM_SSHOPTIONS="-o Ciphers=arcfour128".
22:03
<gbaman>
vagrantc: ?
22:03
<vagrantc>
gbaman: ??
22:06
<gbaman>
hmm
22:07
so, what was the conclusion, best way to sort this issue of needing to switch between local and network OS?
22:08
<alkisg>
Without programming anything? To install the local OS and have different boot entries for local or network booting in the bootloader menu :)
22:08
<gbaman>
we have a bootloader menu?
22:08
<alkisg>
Bootloaders usually support menus, I've no idea about pi
22:08
<gbaman>
no bootloader menu on pi
22:09
<alkisg>
Why not add one?
22:10
<gbaman>
because... I don't have one...
22:11* vagrantc hrmpfs
22:14
<gbaman>
well need some way to do it..
22:16
<vagrantc>
simplest thing would be a simple: cp -vb cmdline_ltsp.txt cmdlinux.txt
22:16
<gbaman>
and how would that be executed?
22:17
mainly as need to consider the issue that the pupil has taken hom the pi
22:17
<vagrantc>
put a menu in the initramfs, or autodetect the network setting.
22:17
<gbaman>
so does not have access to the server
22:18
<vagrantc>
and reboot if the menu selects something other than what's already chosen.
22:18
echo Switch boot method?
22:19
<gbaman>
ok, so initranfs contains /bin/bash?
22:19
<vagrantc>
not bash
22:19
but /bin/sh
22:19
<gbaman>
ok
22:19
<ball>
What do they want the students to do with the Pi when they have it at home?
22:19
<gbaman>
switch 2 config files
22:19
<ball>
(I missed much of the above conversation)
22:20
<gbaman>
so it switches to a local os
22:20
<vagrantc>
gbaman: you probably only need to change cmdline.txt ... i bet it would work fine with one kernel for both environments.
22:20
<gbaman>
hmm
22:20
that would make life easier...
22:20
as we dont need to initramfs's
22:20
*two
22:21
<vagrantc>
so, experiment a bit, try it out, until you get it
22:21
<ball>
Why not have a separate SD card for home use and one for when it's in the lab (being used as a terminal)?
22:21
<vagrantc>
gbaman: come back with more specific questions
22:21
<gbaman>
because sd cards cost money
22:21
:)
22:21
<ball>
gbaman: US$5?
22:21
<vagrantc>
gbaman: while your and our time doesn't :P
22:21
<gbaman>
for 30 kids?
22:22
<ball>
Have the kids buy their own, if they want to use the Raspberry Pi at home.
22:22
<gbaman>
why waste the other 4gb on the sd cards
22:22
anyways, am off to bed, will try that tomorrow vagrantc, thanks :)
22:22
<ball>
Why get 4G cards for the lab?
22:22
<vagrantc>
why waste so much time developing a sub-optimal solution?
22:23
<gbaman>
:)
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22:23
<ball>
My head hurts like a big hurty thing.
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