IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 27 June 2010   (all times are UTC)

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02:44
<sean74>
hi alkisg
02:49
<alkisg>
Hello
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02:55
<sean74>
alkisg: again cups advices? hehe
02:56
alkisg: if i didnt login the client, the cups wont start
02:56
<alkisg>
sean74: you mean the RC_SCRIPT I gave you the other day?
02:56
<sean74>
alkisg: how can i start the cups once the device was start?
02:56
yup
02:56
<alkisg>
Isn't it on the irc logs?
02:59
(06:50:26 μμ) alkisg: Create a file named /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp/start-cups
02:59
(06:50:32 μμ) alkisg: Put the following contents into it:
02:59
(06:50:38 μμ) alkisg: #!/bin/sh
02:59
(06:50:38 μμ) alkisg: /usr/sbin/invoke-rc.d cups start
02:59
(06:50:53 μμ) alkisg: Then, make it executable: sudo chmod +x /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/ltsp/start-cups
02:59
(06:51:14 μμ) alkisg: Finally, make it start automatically from lts.conf:
02:59
(06:51:19 μμ) alkisg: RCFILE_01=/etc/ltsp/start-cups
02:59
(06:51:34 μμ) alkisg: On the next reboot, the client will see the printer if you point cups to localhost.
02:59
(06:52:27 μμ) sean74: do i need to rebuild the image?
02:59
(06:52:40 μμ) alkisg: Yes
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03:15
<sean74>
ok, let me redo this again
03:15
thanks
03:18
alkisg: err, the lts.conf in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/lts.conf or /var/lib/tfptboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf?
03:19
<alkisg>
(06:56:57 μμ) sean74: which lts.conf? tftpboot? /opt/ltsp/i386/etc?
03:19
(06:57:05 μμ) alkisg: /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
03:19
(06:57:09 μμ) alkisg: [Default]
03:19
(06:57:22 μμ) alkisg: RCFILE_01=/etc/ltsp/start-cups
03:19
<sean74>
many thanks
03:19
<alkisg>
Do keep logs ;)
03:20
<sean74>
my bad, i'm too excited to try the thing.
03:20
and always late nite working, once the thing work i go to sleep
03:21
thanks
03:21
now i logged it
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11:48
<jammcq>
hey friends
11:54* vagrantc waves
11:54
<jammcq>
hey hey
11:54
heading to NYC soon ?
11:55
<vagrantc>
bout three weeks till i start the journey
11:57
<jammcq>
hey, it's been a while since I used ltsp. but I have LTSP-5.2 set up at a customer site, and I really have to tell you, it rocks !
11:57
it's freaking amazing how good it has become
11:58
<vagrantc>
indeed.
11:58
<jammcq>
you guys have done such a fantastic job.
11:59
<vagrantc>
just the other day i updated the sdm package in debian ... and that pointed out to me the huge differences with ldm.
11:59
<jammcq>
I'm using it at a large doctors office where we have 5 terminals at the front desk. each terminal has a printer, 2 scanners and a signature pad connected
11:59
sane for the scanners rocks
12:00
for the sigpad, i had to write a daemon to interact with it, and I launch that via udev. so if someone unplugs the signature pad, then plugs it back in, the process automatically starts and connects to my database
12:01
<vagrantc>
that part generalizeable?
12:01
<jammcq>
I'd be happy to share what I have, but it's rather custom for my application
12:01
it's written in perl and C
12:01
and specific to a Topaz signature pad
12:02
we go live on tuesday with all this new stuff. Once everything is smooth, I'd like to write an article about how it all works with ltsp
12:02
that should bring some attention to the project, and we may get other people wanting to do similar things
12:02
<vagrantc>
cool :)
12:04
"founder of LTSP sings it's praises"
12:04
<jammcq>
heh
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12:07
<jammcq>
the one thing i'm still wrestling with is determining which workstation a user is logged into
12:07
firefox is running on the ltsp server
12:07
the web application is running on a different server
12:07
I need my cgi scripts on the web server to be able to know which thin client the user is logged in to, so that I can know which scanners,printers,sigpad to interact with.
12:08
for now, I'll just have to ask the user when they log into my app, but there should be a better way
12:08
<vagrantc>
any way to get the webapp to see environment variables from firefox?
12:08
through some javascript or some such?
12:09
though i suppose javascript is prevented from doing that...
12:10
<jammcq>
dunno yet. I've just starting looking at this in a serious way
12:10
gonna play with user-agent string in firefox, see if I can set that before firefox runs
12:11
maybe set it based on the SSH_CONNECTION info or something like that
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15:47
<Billynkid>
Hi guys
15:47
Trying to configure a ltsp server to play flash videos via a prism browser
15:48
the problem is it generates so much network traffic I can't support more than 5-6 clients
15:48
<vagrantc>
!flash
15:48
<ltspbot>
vagrantc: "flash" :: Yes, flash sucks. Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like https://addons.mozilla.org/el/firefox/addon/161869/ (per user installation, gecko-mediaplayer is also needed).
15:49
<Billynkid>
no its locally hosted flash files
15:50
the LDM_DIRECTX improve performance but also increases network traffic
15:50
which obvious reduces the total number of thin clients we can have running
15:50
I am using a PIV4 with 1.5Gb ram
15:50
<elias_a>
Billynkid: What do you mean with locally hosted flash videos?
15:50
<Billynkid>
the thin clients are neoware c15's
15:51
It's a copy of the RACHEL eductional repositiory
15:51
flash math and science videos
15:51
<elias_a>
AFAIK the problem is not where the videos are hosted.
15:51
<Billynkid>
we have tried xrdp as an alternative but the sound does not redirect
15:52
no the problem is the fact one node generates 50mbits of network traffic rendering one video. If I just connect via my normal laptop it generates 0.40 kbytes or so
15:52
<elias_a>
The problem is that basically the work that usually would take place inside a PC, including bus activity, is in the network.
15:52
<vagrantc>
Billynkid: try running the flash players as a localapp
15:53
<elias_a>
Yes. Go for localapps approach.
15:53
<vagrantc>
if your thin clients have the horseplayer to do so...
15:53
<Billynkid>
have tried installing prism or firefox and adobe flash locally seems the apps run slower
15:53
vagrantc not sure they do
15:53
<vagrantc>
well, you're in a tricky spot, then.
15:53
<elias_a>
Billynkid: To me it seems you are trying to solve a nonsolvable problem.
15:57
<Billynkid>
Ok is there a good xdcmp client build
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16:12
<spectre->
hi!
16:13
same problem as billynkid
16:13
is there a way to localize x11?
16:13
so that all this rendering traffic can stay local to the node?
16:14
(x11,gdm,whatever)
16:15
<alkisg>
fat clients?
16:18
<spectre->
sorta
16:19
except these are limited to 64mb
16:19
<alkisg>
64mb ram? You can't do much with them then
16:19
<spectre->
diskless nodes would be ideal
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16:19
<spectre->
but the hp of these neowares is crap
16:19
<alkisg>
There's no recent DE that runs on 64M
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16:19
<spectre->
nah 128ram
16:19
64mb flash space
16:19
for hd
16:20
the bottleneck seems to be the network
16:20
<alkisg>
You don't need a HD, you can use them as diskless clients. But with 128 RAM you can't really do anything with them. If they had 1-2GB RAM... :)
16:20
<spectre->
we COULD upgrade to gigabit but it's not ideal
16:20
<alkisg>
128 RAM ==> only thin clients
16:20
<spectre->
:/
16:20
<alkisg>
You don't need a full gigabit network
16:21
Just a switch with 1 gigabit port, and a gigabit nic on the server
16:21
<spectre->
just gigabit from switch to server
16:21
yeah
16:22
alright
16:22
well, thanks :p
16:22
<alkisg>
Sure
16:22
You can also use bonding
16:22
<spectre->
what's bonding?
16:22
<alkisg>
E.g. 3-4 NICs on the server can give you 300-400 mbps with a 100mbps switch
16:22
<spectre->
ahhh
16:22
<alkisg>
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/Trunking
16:23
<spectre->
alright, good stuff. thanks!
16:23
<alkisg>
That helps. A gigabit server <=> switch connection is better though
16:23
<spectre->
yeah gigabit is a pain because we're in Uganda
16:23
and it's for a rural education system
16:23
<alkisg>
Ah. How many clients?
16:24
<spectre->
5-10
16:24
<alkisg>
Here (greece) it would cost about 50€...
16:24
<spectre->
can't even really get gbps switches here
16:24
<alkisg>
Can't you shop online?
16:24
<spectre->
no :)
16:25
<alkisg>
Sucks :)
16:25
<spectre->
it's uganda
16:25
anything gigabit essentially needs to come here via someones suitcase
16:25
some newer consumer systems come with gbps nics
16:25
but gbps switches don' t exist here yet
16:26
<alkisg>
I see... yeah well trunking would be a good choice then.
16:26
<spectre->
yeah, indeed, so thanks for the link :)
16:26
<alkisg>
I've worked at a school with 8 clients and 4 nics on the server for a year
16:27
It was ok, with 400mbps overall traffic.
16:27
<spectre->
we're also thinking of converting flv's to ogg's
16:27
to cut down on traffic
16:27
<alkisg>
!flash
16:27
<ltspbot>
alkisg: "flash" :: Yes, flash sucks. Make sure you have LDM_DIRECTX=True in your lts.conf file, or if it's just youtube you're after, try some flash replacing plugin like https://addons.mozilla.org/el/firefox/addon/161869/ (per user installation, gecko-mediaplayer is also needed).
16:27
<alkisg>
With a plugin like that you won't see any difference
16:27
As long as the player uses XV acceleration, the video format doesn't matter.
16:28
<spectre->
we noticed ogg's ran around 2MB/sec
16:28
flv's consumed nearly 6
16:28
<alkisg>
A normal video is about 50 mbps
16:29
<spectre->
flv was -- we got ogg to run at around 25
16:29
<alkisg>
Nah
16:29
What dimentions / fps was the video?
16:29
<spectre->
i saw it on vnstat -l
16:29
2000ish kB/se
16:29
c
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16:29
<spectre->
don't recall but decent
16:29
<alkisg>
The hard disk video compression doesn't matter
16:30
When it goes to the clients, it gets decompressed
16:30
<spectre->
well, i dunno, but the ogg video we tested ran 2000ish kB/sec and the flv was around 6000
16:30
<alkisg>
So if a video is 640x480x24bppx24fps, you multiply all those to get the bandwidth
16:31
And if the user resizes it, you use the window size for the calculation
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16:31
<alkisg>
Unless XV acceleration is used
16:31
<spectre->
interesting
16:31
<alkisg>
In this case, the resizing happens on the client
16:31
So even if they see the video full screen, it's still 640x480 for the bandwidth
16:31
<spectre->
yeah
16:31
<alkisg>
And because YUV is used, it's 12 bits per pixel for each color, not 24
16:32
So it's much less ==> 50 mbps
16:32
The disk format (flv, avi, ogg, whatever) doesn't matter AT ALL
16:32
<spectre->
ok so it was a resolution difference?
16:32
<alkisg>
How did you play the video?
16:32
<spectre->
app
16:33
flv was browser
16:33
<alkisg>
Did you mount a network disk, or did you use an ltsp client (==remote X)?
16:33
<spectre->
it was hosted on the ltsp server machine
16:33
<alkisg>
And you watched it from an ltsp client?
16:33
<spectre->
yes
16:33
<alkisg>
Did you have LDM_DIRECTX=true in lts.conf?
16:34
<spectre->
for a later test yes but for the original no
16:34
<alkisg>
Then a lot of frames were dropped because the client had 100% cpu usage
16:34
So you didn't see the actual bandwidth needed, but a cut-down version because of the lost frames
16:34
<spectre->
when that directx line was false we got decent fps
16:34
it was fairly smooth
16:35
<alkisg>
Right. What bandwidth did you see then?
16:35
<spectre->
2000ish
16:35
maybe 2500
16:35
kB
16:35
<alkisg>
No, thats too low
16:35
<spectre->
seriously :P
16:35
<alkisg>
Was that network bandwidth or disk bandwidth?
16:35
<spectre->
was vnstat -l running on the ltsp server
16:35
network
16:36
but the flv racked up like 6000/51mbps
16:36
<alkisg>
Wait, KByte? I.e. 2 MByte per second?
16:36
<spectre->
and was choppy
16:37
<alkisg>
With the same player?
16:37
<spectre->
no
16:37
browser
16:37
<alkisg>
OK, in this case no XV was used
16:37
<spectre->
the ogg we played in movie player or whatever default app
16:37
flv was browser based
16:37
<alkisg>
So your numbers maybe be ok if it was a small video
16:37
E.g. 320x200 or something like that
16:37
<spectre->
it was the example ogg ubuntu gives you
16:38
<alkisg>
Anyway, one thing is certain: the disk format has absolutely no impact at all on the network bandwidth
16:38
<spectre->
yeah so prolly a resolution issue
16:38
<alkisg>
So if you get any results that say otherwise, check them again, something else is happening
16:38
<spectre->
well, it's all rendered on the server, right?
16:39
<alkisg>
Yes, and then it travel on the network after it's decoded
16:39
So it may impact CPU usage, but not network bandwidth
16:39
<spectre->
and the video output meant for the video card is redirected to the thinclient, right?
16:39
<alkisg>
Yes
16:39
<spectre->
gotcha -- figured that after all this diagnosis we did :p
16:40
so essentially directx takes away ssh
16:40
right?
16:40
thus reducing encryption overhead?
16:40
or rather eliminating?
16:40
<alkisg>
More or less. X traffic is unencrypted, but ssh authentication is still encrypted
16:41
<spectre->
ah
16:41
<alkisg>
So the initial password doesn't travel over the network unencrypted...
16:41
<spectre->
and with that to true the data is also uncompressed and thus traffic is higher?
16:41* alkisg uses iftop and iptraf for network monitoring
16:42
<alkisg>
Yes traffic is higher, but the clients have 100% cpu usage for video, thus dropping most of the frames
16:42
<spectre->
ah
16:42
<alkisg>
(and for scrolling a firefox window etc etc)
16:43
So if security is not much of a concern, ldm_directx is much better if set to true.
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