IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 21 November 2011   (all times are UTC)

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08:24
<muppis>
Google Earth doesn't pop up as local app in menu of 10.04.
08:25
Tried even with full path to app as in .desktop file.
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09:41
<alkisg>
stgraber: epoptes is now in Debian unstable, you can pull it whenever you want: http://packages.debian.org/sid/epoptes
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10:48
<lifeboy>
Is there a reason why this
10:48
root@Ashton:/# ltsp-update-image --arch=i386
10:48
Parallel mksquashfs: Using 12 processors
10:48
Creating 4.0 filesystem on /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img.tmp, block size 131072.
10:48
[======================================================================================\ ] 170981/246896 69%
10:48
comes to a standstill on a powerful server when one switches the focus away from the window in an X-server environment?
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11:05
<alkisg>
ltsp-update-image runs with `nice` so that your users are not affected by the compression load
11:09
<lifeboy>
alkisg: I checked again, yes, it actually does continue, it just slows down to a trickle
11:10
<khildin>
great piece of software ... ltsp huh?... :)
11:11
<lifeboy>
btw: alkisg and all the others that helped with my kernel compile problem: I asked in #ubuntu-kernel for help and smb and some others there assisted in getting the problem sorted and a kernel compiled with the modules I need.
11:12
It seems that the "Local version - append to kernel release" string I added could have caused the problem.
11:12
but thanks for all of you who helped and listened! :-)
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11:29
<alkisg>
Nice :)
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11:37
<lifeboy>
The great thing is that I now have a client that uses less than 2 watts of power and with an LED 18.5" monitor @ less than 20W, I run the whole lot over PoE from the server's central UPS, all on the same cable (client and monitor both work on 14volts)
11:38
and it's all driven by LTSP!
11:42
<muppis>
Sounds perfect.
11:43
I did other way around. Booted HP DL380 as client.
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13:04
<muppis>
I'd like to have client hostnames to be resolved by server.
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13:12
<Hyperbyte>
muppis, ddns. :)
13:13
<muppis>
Hyperbyte, sorry, I forgot the question. Any suggestion how to do that?
13:13
<Hyperbyte>
ddns.
13:13
Dynamic dns updates.
13:14
Your local DHCP server can contact your local DNS server whenever it hands out a lease, and ask the server to create the approriate DNS record.
13:14
<muppis>
No software to suggest?
13:14
<Hyperbyte>
http://blogger.ziesemer.com/2008/10/linux-lan-dchp-dynamic-dns.html
13:14
Just your regular isc dhcpd server (default Ubuntu dhcpd) and bind nameserver (default Ubuntu dns server)
13:15
I wouldn't go through the trouble though, it's not that easy to set up (speaking from experience).
13:15
<muppis>
As being lazy, I replaced all those with dnsmasq. :)
13:15* alkisg too
13:16
<alkisg>
But dnsmasq supports scripts on dhcp leases, maybe that could be used instead
13:16
<Hyperbyte>
You'd need to set up bind to allow updates from localhost, with the approriate rndc key
13:17
And then you'd need to configure your dhcpd server (whatever one you use) to authorize to bind with the correct rndc key and send the update
13:17
<muppis>
Hmm.. Hold a second.
13:18* Hyperbyte holds
13:18
<Hyperbyte>
No actually
13:18* Hyperbyte lunches
13:18
<Hyperbyte>
Back in a bit.
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13:19
<muppis>
I just remembered that dnsmasq makes a record for a client if it receives the name in request.
13:20
<alkisg>
muppis: in the dhcp request? Hmmm we could use the lts.conf HOSTNAME directive there
13:20
Let me try if that works
13:21
<muppis>
I'll try that too.
13:21
<alkisg>
Of course dnsmasq is also a dhcp server, so you can put the hostnames in dnsmasq
13:21
But it'd be cool to have even the ltsp123 automatic names resolvable
13:21
<muppis>
That's my goal.
13:27
<alkisg>
Haha it just works, nice :D
13:27
The problem is that we don't have lts.conf available before the dhcp request
13:27
So we don't know the client hostname
13:27
So, we'd have to do 2 dhcp requests
13:28
One to be able to fetch lts.conf, and another to notify dnsmasq about our hostname, which kinda sucks
13:28
<muppis>
Yeah.
13:28
<alkisg>
What we *could* do, is create a hostname based on the mac address
13:29
That way the clients would even have a static hostname, even if one doesn't use static IPs
13:29
muppis: could you file a bug report asking that? I.e. to change the default ltsp hostnames to mac-based hostnames?
13:30
E.g. ltsp0090f5805d24
13:30
<muppis>
Isn't that in option already?
13:30
<alkisg>
It's an option in lts.conf
13:30
We don't have access to lts.conf when we ask for a dhcp lease
13:31
So it would have to be the default option for this to work
13:31
<muppis>
I can file a bug for it.
13:32
<alkisg>
I wonder if that would be considered a security issue, if so we could use a hash function
13:32
E.g. md5sum of the mac address, or crc32
13:32
That would make the hostnames smaller too
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13:33
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, why would that be a security issue?
13:33
<muppis>
Which makes you think that as security issue?
13:33
<Hyperbyte>
:)
13:33
<alkisg>
Exposing the mac address in the hostname
13:33
<muppis>
Isn't that done anyway?
13:33
<alkisg>
I don't know if that would be an issue, I'm just wondering
13:33
<Hyperbyte>
Mac address is exposed as soon as a machine sends one packet onto the network
13:34
<alkisg>
Yes, but it's not exposed to the internet
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13:34
<alkisg>
But e.g. the browser may send your hostname? Or something?
13:34
<Hyperbyte>
Mac addresses can't be used to communicate over the internet, or via browsers.
13:34
*via routers
13:35
<alkisg>
It tells someone information about your hardware
13:35
<Hyperbyte>
Mac addresses are only usuable on one network segment (i.e, your switch and all machines connected to it)
13:35
<muppis>
In local net it can finded anyway, if wanted.
13:35
<alkisg>
(03:33:58 μμ) Hyperbyte: Mac address is exposed as soon as a machine sends one packet onto the network => all the machines know all machines? My arp cache table is usually not complete..
13:36
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, that's because usually machines don't sniff out all network traffic. ;-)
13:36
<alkisg>
But anyway, *I* am not concerned, I hope others won't be too :D
13:36
<Hyperbyte>
And only pick up traffic meant for them.
13:36
<muppis>
Local arp cache knows only connected addresses' and in ltsp server..
13:36
<alkisg>
I thought switches were intelligent enough to only send packets to interested clients
13:37
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, broadcasts (such as dhcp requests) are excluded from that logic
13:37
<alkisg>
Switching to mac-address-based hostnames makes more sense than IPs anyway, because they're static
13:37
Hyperbyte, indeed, but the hostname is there even after the dhcp request
13:38
So e.g. you can find a thin client's mac address even days after its dhcp request
13:38
Anyway, I guess noone would worry about that
13:38
<Hyperbyte>
If I can ping it, I can find it anyways.
13:38
And I can't ping it, I can't connect with it.
13:39
Only thing would be that remote websites and such, could possibly figure out what kind of network card the thin client has
13:39
<muppis>
alkisg, so, against which packet I should file the bug?
13:39
<alkisg>
!ltsp-bug
13:39
<ltsp>
alkisg: ltsp-bug: To file a bug report for upstream LTSP, go to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ltsp
13:40
<alkisg>
So... ltsp0090f5805d24 is too long, isn't it? How about getting a "modulo 10000" of that? Wouldn't that be rare enough for most installations?
13:40
Or maybe omit the vendor bits from the mac...
13:41
<muppis>
In very rare cases that can cause duplicates.
13:41
<alkisg>
What would dnsmasq do in that case?
13:42
Or should we just keep the full mac there?
13:42
<muppis>
I'm not sure about the linux version, but in dd-wrt refuses work at all.
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13:42
<muppis>
Full mac or some sorter hash.
13:43
<alkisg>
Hmm I had labs of windows machines with the same hostnames, I didn't have dhcp problems.
13:43
And also previously all ltsp clients had hostname=="ltsp"
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13:44
<muppis>
Of course. As I think what it would, it just gives the IP and put the name for it.
13:44
<alkisg>
Wikipedia says "3 bytes UOI, and 3 bytes NIC specific"
13:45
Maybe we could keep the nic-specific bits. Or we could rewrite the whole mac in base-64
13:46
<muppis>
Doesn't Base64 be longer than mac?
13:47
<alkisg>
No, hex digits as letters express 16 bits
13:47
**16 different values, 4 bits
13:47
Base64 == 64 different values, 6 bits
13:47
So it would be like ltspa1b2c3d4
13:48
while keeping the 3 last bytes would be like ltsp1a2b3c, even smaller, but with possible collissions?
13:49
<muppis>
Sounds acceptable.
13:49
<Hyperbyte>
Possibility of collision is pretty small I'd say.
13:50
<muppis>
But now I need to hit the road. Gotta fecth some food for kids before picking them from daycare.
13:50
<alkisg>
I think so too, maybe big organizations like those would even use the same vendor, making collissions even more rare
13:50
bb muppis
13:50
<Hyperbyte>
I'm not good at chance calculation, but I believe possibility of collision is one in 33 million.
13:50
<muppis>
bye for today.
13:51
<Hyperbyte>
Bye muppis!
13:51
<alkisg>
Hyperbyte: 3 bytes = 256*256*256 = 16 million different values
13:51
<Hyperbyte>
alkisg, yes, but then the matching one
13:51
<alkisg>
The first doesn't collide
13:51
<Hyperbyte>
I'd say it's 2x256x256x256
13:51
<alkisg>
The second one has 1/16 milllions to collide
13:51
<Hyperbyte>
mhmm
13:51
<alkisg>
The third one, 2/16m to collide, etc
13:52
<Hyperbyte>
See, told you I wasn't good at this.
13:52
They'd also have to be on the same network segment, by the way.
13:52
<alkisg>
So if you have 10000 computers, there's a good change for collisions, if the numbers are random - which they aren't
13:52
Because the same vendor ships different numbers by design
13:53
<Hyperbyte>
If you have 10.000 LTSP clients on network segment, you'd need fiber to handle all the bandwith.
13:53
*on one
13:53
:P
13:53
<alkisg>
Yeah I think we can settle on keeping the last 6 digits (3 bytes) of the mac, if the other devs agree
13:53
And even make that the default, because using the IP as the default doesn't really help anywhere
13:54
While with the mac we can have ddns updates
13:54
<Hyperbyte>
By the way
13:54
<alkisg>
udhcpc -h calculated-hostname, ready
13:54
<Hyperbyte>
Using only last number of IP as default, you have a lot more collision possibilities. :P
13:54
<alkisg>
No, because it checks the netmask
13:54
So if you have 255.0.0.0 => 16m different hostnames there
13:54
<Hyperbyte>
It does?
13:54
<alkisg>
ltsp123476473
13:55
Yup, I wrote that part :D
13:55
<Hyperbyte>
Ah.
13:55
Smart. :)
14:04
<stgraber>
alkisg: done
14:04
<alkisg>
stgraber: thanks! Btw how do you feel about changing the default ltsp client hostnames to mac-based?
14:04
We can have dynamic dns updates with udhcpc and ipconfig this way
14:04
Like, ltspa1b2c3
14:05
Implementation == udhcpc -h hostname, done
14:07
<stgraber>
alkisg: I don't have a problem with that. I think it's going to be more difficult for users to give on the phone for tech support, but at the same time it'll be more accurate than what we have at the moment
14:08
<alkisg>
Nice, I'll try it for some time and probably commit the change after a couple of weeks
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14:37
<Yoe>
anyone here who wants to do a talk about LTSP in the FOSDEM cross-distro devroom? (4-5 february, brussels)
14:37* Yoe is desperately looking for an 'interesting' schedule...
14:45
<Hyperbyte>
Yoe, you should ask nubae probably.
14:45
Or knipwim.
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14:48
<Hyperbyte>
Hey jammcq :)
14:48
<jammcq>
hey Hyperbyte
14:48
how's it going?
14:49
<Hyperbyte>
Busybusybusy. :)
14:49
But good.
14:49
Wednesday they're finally installing phone lines in our new office.
14:49
100 lines total.
14:50
I only need two internet, since we use VoIP.
14:50
But for this type of building (it's in industrial area) they don't install less than 100.
14:50
heh
14:50
Only have to pay installation for 100 though, monthly costs just for two.
14:50
<jammcq>
wow
14:51
<Hyperbyte>
They start at 8 in the morning too
14:51
Which means I have to start at 8 in the morning as well, probably earlier. :(
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16:22
<sbalneav>
Morning all
16:23
<mgariepy>
morning scotty ;)
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16:25* vagrantc waves to sbalneav
16:26
<ogra_>
!s
16:26
<ltsp>
ogra_: s: Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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16:26
<ogra_>
:)
16:26
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: so, i goes to test this new libnss-sshsock, and i couldn't reproduce the problem with the old version...
16:26
sbalneav: uploaded anyways ... heh.
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16:30
<jammcq>
sbalneav: Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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16:32* vagrantc waves to jammcq
16:32
<jammcq>
hey vagrantc
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16:39
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: I fixed the problem. So, that's good :)
16:39
jammcq: hey ho
16:41
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: and i uploaded it :)
16:41
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: During December, stgraber and I are going to give a shot at trying to get the pam stuff going with a regular DM. You in?
16:41
hey ogra_
16:41
mgariepy: Bonjour, mes ami
16:41
<ogra_>
yo
16:41
<lifeboy>
Hey all, should I post a howto of my kernel compile for a Vortex86 processor based thin client for LTSP somewhere in the LTSP wiki or would it be more appropriate in the Ubuntu/Kernel wiki?
16:42
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: sure :)
16:42
<ogra_>
did you build an ubuntu package using the ubuntu source packages ?
16:42
if so, put it on the ubuntu wiki
16:43
<lifeboy>
ogra_: yes
16:43
<ogra_>
did you build a zImage/vmlinuz from upstream git trees, use the ltsp wiki
16:44
<lifeboy>
The reason for the build is exclusively to provide LTSP needed modules, and I basically used the debian/rules scripts
16:44
<ogra_>
uuh
16:45
you should have used fakeroot debian/rules editconfigs
16:45
<lifeboy>
yes, I did, I just didn't say it all ;-)
16:45
<ogra_>
ah, k :)
16:45
yeah, thats very ubuntu specific, shouldnt go into the upstream wiki
16:46
<vagrantc>
lifeboy: so you were successful in the end?
16:47
<lifeboy>
Yes. I was here while the US was still sleeping ;-)
16:47
<lifeboy> btw: alkisg and all the others that helped with my kernel compile problem: I asked in #ubuntu-kernel for help and smb and some others there assisted in getting the problem sorted and a kernel compiled with the modules I need.
16:47
<lifeboy> It seems that the "Local version - append to kernel release" string I added could have caused the problem.
16:47
<lifeboy> but thanks for all of you who helped and listened! :-)
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17:11
<sbalneav>
Gadi: Did you need any help from me on testing/integrating the nss_sshsock stuff?
17:13
<lifeboy>
I posted a howto response to my original post on the XCore86 forums at http://www.deviceonchip.com/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=5&id=631&limit=6&limitstart=12&Itemid=85#656 that describes how I eventually did it.
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17:22
<Gadi>
sbalneav: hey. Sorry - was on phone. No, I think it tested just fine for me. Don't think I have even pulled the latest/greatest as yet
17:24
<sbalneav>
ah, cool
17:25
the new one doesn't go off into an infinite loop if it's placed before the "compat" setting.
17:25
<Gadi>
I suppose that's a feature
17:25
:)
17:26* vagrantc was unable to reproduce it with the old version before testing the new version
17:26
<vagrantc>
just like ltspfs
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18:28
<alkisg>
vagrantc: if we switched to mac-based hostnames, e.g. ltspa1b2c3d4e5f6 (or just ltspa1b2c3 if we keep the 3-byte NIC part and skip the 3-byte vendor part), then we can run `udhcpc -h hostname` in the initramfs, and have dynamic DNS updates ==> static hostnames+DNS entries for all clients with no static entries in DHCP. Wouldn't that be a good idea?
18:28
klibc ipconfig supports a :::hostname: syntax, but I'm not sure if it sends it in the dhcp request
18:29
It should be very easy to send a patch for it, though
18:31
<mgariepy>
alkisg, you simply change the HOSTNAME_EXTRA default ?
18:31
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i don't want to have to dynamically generate usernames
18:32
based on mac addresses
18:32
<alkisg>
mgariepy: no, unfortunately at that point, before the dhcp lease, we don't have access to lts.conf
18:32
But we can "calculate" the hostname we send to the dhcp request based on the mac address
18:34
vagrantc: now you create 255 users, right?
18:35
So if one has a 255.0.0.0 subnet, he'd get in trouble with that method. Maybe we can try some dynamic method?
18:36
E.g. we can have just as many user accounts as we have PCs, and dynamically map clients to user accounts
18:36
<vagrantc>
alkisg: for each network, yes.
18:37
alkisg: one one network, the accounts are ltsp100-255, on another diskless100-255, on another build100-255
18:37
alkisg: but the number of clients may change
18:38
<alkisg>
vagrantc: how about a kernel option that would enable mac-based hostnames? pxelinux.cfg/default => ltsp-hostnames=mac or something?
18:38
<vagrantc>
alkisg: mac based hostnames could be the default, as long as it's easy to switch back to the current behavior
18:38
<alkisg>
vagrantc: are those guest accounts, with their settings/files deleted after each logout?
18:39
<vagrantc>
alkisg: basically (deleted daily)
18:40
<alkisg>
OK let me think if some of the pam modules could be used to dynamically create user accounts, as needed...
18:40
<Gadi>
uhh... that would be counter the stack, no?
18:41
I mean, tough to auth and create at the same time
18:41
<alkisg>
Btw, we can try to have ddns updates even with ip-based hostnames. udhcpd -h ltsp123
18:42
Gadi: well, lightdm does have guest session support
18:42
I don't know how it does it, but it should be doable...
18:42* Gadi thinks the user needs to exist before PAM
18:43
<Gadi>
if lightdm runs as root, then no doubt it can create the user as needed
18:43
before PAM
18:43
otherwise, maybe it runs as a dedicated user
18:43
on a PC, there is only one guest at a time, no?
18:44
<alkisg>
No idea, I haven't tried to login as guest a second time simultaneously
18:44* vagrantc also uses ssh keys for authenticating the guest accounts
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18:45
<Gadi>
as another data point, ltsp-cluster talks to a server side daemon to create a user and exchange an ssh key prior to initiating the ssh socket
18:45
then, sets that user as LDM_USERNAME
18:45
<alkisg>
One thought would be to have the same guest account for everyone, and just a different (and temp) home for each. I don't know if fuse or chroots can help there.
18:46
Any security concerns there?
18:46
<Gadi>
alkisg: not sure how nicely things that use /tmp will play that way
18:46
ie, /tmp/orbit-$USER
18:46
etc
18:47
<alkisg>
There's a pam module for different tmp dirs
18:47
I've never used it - I'm just brainstorming :)
18:47
security concerns => about the ltsp-cluster method
18:47
?
18:47
Could that be used without ltsp-cluster too, then?
18:48
<Gadi>
afaik, yes. tho, not sure how much it needs the control center piece if at all
18:48
<mgariepy>
alkisg, it could i guess. ltsp-cluster-accountmanager creates account on the server.
18:49
<alkisg>
If the client can ask the server to create an ltspa1b2c3 user, then only as many user accounts as there are clients would be created, and wouldn't even need to be deleted afterwards
18:49
<mgariepy>
Gadi, it doesn't req the control-center
18:49
currently the code is to make the user acount echo ip|base64
18:50
which is kinda ugly ;) haha
18:50
<alkisg>
mgariepy: are there any security concerns there? E.g. if I have access to your network, could I flood your server with account creation requests?
18:50
...or use them to login, etc etc?
18:52
<mgariepy>
(echo -n "$LDM_SERVER " ; echo "getkey" | nc $nc_q_param $LDM_SERVER 8001 && echo) > /root/.ssh/known_hosts
18:52
cat P00-ltsp-cluster
18:55
if you install ltsp-cluster-accountmanager on ltsp-server and bypass [ -f /etc/ltsp/getltscfg-cluster.conf ] in /usr/share/ldm/rc.d/P00-ltsp-cluster it should work
18:55
accountmanager create a base64 named account base on incomming connexion
18:55
<alkisg>
Gotcha, yeah that doesn't sound hard
18:56
<mgariepy>
it's not hard, the code is there and already working ;)
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19:07
<alkisg>
We have the same situation in the edubuntu live dvd too; it'd be nice if we were able to dynamically create accounts
19:13
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i don't like the idea of shared accounts, even if the HOMEDIR mangling works properly
19:14
alkisg: users with the same UID would be able to read each other's homedirs, and probably even connect to their X sessions, etc.
19:15
libpam-tmpdir is largely broken because many applications ignore the TMPDIR environment variable (and other variables) for ... security reasons.
19:15
it would be interesting to dynamically create user accounts on client boot
19:15
though i typically use many login servers independent of one another
19:18
<muppis>
alkisg, it is hard to patch that default hostname generation?
19:18
<alkisg>
vagrantc: if it's possible to create fuse filesystems that only processes on the same group can see, maybe it's possible to isolate both /home/username and /tmp then... no idea if it's technically possible. But ok dynamic account creation on boot is surely doable, and if it's based on mac then the same client will always get the same user account too
19:18
<muppis>
Because I'd like to have it working tomorrow. ;)
19:18
<alkisg>
muppis: how do you need to change it?
19:19
You mean to have ddns updates by tomorrow?
19:19
<muppis>
Yes.
19:19
<alkisg>
Just put the -h parameter to the udhcpc call in the initramfs
19:19
You don't need to modify the hostname, use the default ltsp123 one
19:19
We have code for that already in the initramfs somewhere
19:20
<muppis>
Nice.
19:20
<alkisg>
muppis: you're using udhcpc, right?
19:20
Not ipconfig or ipappend 3...
19:20
<muppis>
Sure thing.
19:22
<alkisg>
Errr sorry that can't be done, it needs to be mac-based
19:23
The code for mac-based hostnames is in nfs-bottom/ltsp
19:23
<muppis>
Then I have to figure out something.
19:23
<alkisg>
case "$HOSTNAME_EXTRA" in
19:23
mac)
19:23
HOSTNAME_EXTRA=$(ip link show $DEVICE | awk '/ether/{print $2}' | tr ':' '-')
19:24
That's what you need to calculate the hostname, and then put the result to udhcpc -h $hostname
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19:24
<alkisg>
And also put HOSTNAME_EXTRA=mac in lts.conf
19:26
muppis: btw, another way is to put HOSTNAME_EXTRA=mac, and just put all your clients in your dns, statically
19:26
In /etc/hosts or in your dnsmasq configuration
19:26
No need to touch any code at all, this way. No ddns updates, but the dns resolution works.
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19:27
<alkisg>
Meh again I'm saying stupid things, you don't have their IPs
19:28
<muppis>
That's what I'm trying to avoid, static information in dnsmasq.
19:29
Because dnsmasq is going to be service that can be thrown from server to other by Pacemaker.
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19:43
<alkisg>
muppis: yeah you'd need that mac code I pasted above then. Put it in the udhcpc script in the initramfs.
19:44
<muppis>
I try remember that at tomorrow in work. :)
19:46
But doesn't that cause problems if clietn got multiple nics and all are connected?
19:47
<vagrantc>
oh fun.
19:48
curiously, my syslinux documents only IPAPPEND 1, 2 and 4
19:49* vagrantc wonders what happened to 3
19:49
<alkisg>
muppis: no, it shouldn't matter, any of those nics would be unique too
19:49
vagrantc: those can be binary OR'ed, afaik
19:49
What is ipappend 4?
19:49
<muppis>
alkisg, ok then.
19:49
<vagrantc>
alkisg: appends SYSUUID
19:50
whatever that is
19:50
<alkisg>
Um, /me googles...
19:50
<vagrantc>
we should default to ipappend 2
19:53
<alkisg>
Ah it's the long UUID right next to the MAC, http://sirlagz.net/?p=299
19:54
vagrantc: yes - and I think there was work in pxelinux recently to pass the lease info to the initrams too, maybe that way we could even completely avoid the second dhcp request
19:55
We'd set a "static" IP with the info we get from the pxe stack, and finally run dhclient in the real file system to manage the lease
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19:59
<alkisg>
vagrantc: btw, we could also default to IPAPPEND 3, skip the dhcp request in the initramfs completely, and run dhclient in the real file system afterwards and request the same IP from there
19:59
Is there any reason why the dhcp server would refuse that request?
20:01
<muppis>
Too strict configuration.
20:01
<alkisg>
...and if it is, then it would be possible to refuse it on lease renewals too, thus crashing the client
20:01
<muppis>
But why in world any dhcpd refuses renewals?
20:03
<alkisg>
Hmm the down side is that we lose the info provided by dhcp at initramfs, we only have next-server, gateway etc there, so we'd have to rely on next-server, lts.conf etc for the whole configuration
20:09
<vagrantc>
alkisg: one problem is that the dhcp server might hand you a new ip address, and that doesn't typically go over well.
20:10
<alkisg>
vagrantc: yes, but we have the same problem later on too, on lease renewals, we can't really do anything from the client side for this, it needs to be cared of on the server side
20:10
<muppis>
vagrantc, doesn't that usually mean too short lease time?
20:10
Or response from wrong dhcpd.
20:10
<vagrantc>
could be either
20:11
but short lease times is a good way to prevent DoS attacks on your DHCP server.
20:11
<alkisg>
For lease renewals typically the server that issued the lease answers
20:11
<vagrantc>
well, not a good way, but a way ...
20:12
i've seen the occasional broken card which triggers extra DHCP requests till there are no ip addresses left
20:13
<alkisg>
Doesn't the dhcp server send the same IP in this case? (same mac, same clientid, lease not yet expired?)
20:13
<vagrantc>
depends on how broken the card is
20:13
<alkisg>
Mhm
20:13
<vagrantc>
when dealing with things not working as they should, all bets are off :)
20:14
thankfully, that's been rare
20:14
<alkisg>
What dhcp info would we need in the initramfs, that we couldn't get from dhclient later on on the real file system?
20:14
(I mean, if we always used IPAPPEND 3)
20:14
(so we only had next-server, BOOTIF, and gateway)
20:14* vagrantc wonders if the absence in documentation suggests ipappend 3 is deprecated
20:15
<alkisg>
I've read an answer by hpa about the OR'ing bit
20:15
So as long as IPAPPEND 1 and 2 exist, 3 will exist too
20:16
But I think I've also read him say that "using IPAPPEND 1 means that your network configuration is broken", I don't know if he still thinks that way or if he thinks about deprecating IPAPPEND 1...
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20:17
<alkisg>
On the other hand, the new code that notifies the initramfs about the pxe lease suggests they still care about that part
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20:48
<shawnp0wers>
For those users managing large groups of people (schools, etc) -- what backend are you using for user authentication?
20:48
<muppis>
LDAP
20:48
<shawnp0wers>
do you interface with non-Linux OSes?
20:48
I mean, do those accounts work for Windows clients, OSX clients, etc?
20:48
Or do you strictly use Linux?
20:49
I'm currently using OSX server for my user authentication, but I'm running into serious limits when it comes to authenticating with services (web filtering, etc)
20:49
<muppis>
They can be managed to work with Windows, but haven't done that.
20:50
<shawnp0wers>
I see. One solution for me would be to get an Active Directory server to handle user authentication -- but that is expensive, and quite frankly not attractive
20:50
Largely because I'm clueless when it comes to Windows administration
20:51
It seems like every appliance in the world now supports Active Directory, for obvious reasons, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.
20:51
So, I'm curious what most folks here use, as I use LTSP for better than half my workstations.
20:52
<muppis>
Google OpenLDAP for Windows.
20:53
<shawnp0wers>
Oh, I'd MUCH rather run OpenLDAP under Linux -- my concern is compatibility with Windows/OSX clients.
20:54
I'd like to avoid a Windows server if at all possible. :D
20:54
<muppis>
That's a client for Windows, not server.
20:55
<shawnp0wers>
oh, ok, gotcha
20:55
my googling found a server package. :)
20:55
I misunderstood. :)
20:55
<muppis>
Funny. I founded a client. :)
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22:42
<matrix3000>
google-fu ahahaha
22:42
learned a new slang term today
22:53
<shogunx>
hey anyone... squeeze ltsp related. how to enable local devices?
22:54
<vagrantc>
should just be enabled by default
22:54
shogunx: still have the add the users to fuse group on the server
23:01
<shogunx>
okie. thanx vagrantc. i should get a chance to hack on the hp arm client soon, but I really wanted to plant the raspberrypi as a ltsp client in your head on that end;)
23:02
<vagrantc>
i guess the hp t5325 was discontinued in favor of a newer model?
23:02
which maybe means it's possible to get on the cheap...
23:03
<shogunx>
thats a good thought too.
23:04
<vagrantc>
i suspect hardware into my hands would be more useful than in my head :)
23:04
<shogunx>
if i win the buy first release lottery (i click fast enough after they announce they are for sale) i will send you one.
23:05
<vagrantc>
heh
23:07
<alkisg>
Thin client hats... not a bad idea :P
23:07
<vagrantc>
what's the raspberrypi like?
23:07
<shogunx>
its a little $25 arm board that does hd video, apparently.
23:08
<alkisg>
But no lan by default, right?
23:08
<shogunx>
if it does pxe, or we can encourage it to, it makes for a very compelling solution.
23:08
no, theres lan i think.
23:08
<vagrantc>
indeed!
23:09
<alkisg>
The Model B version of the device includes 10/100 wired Ethernet. There is no Ethernet on the Model A version (which we expect to be taken up mostly by the education market), but Wi-Fi will be available via a standard USB dongle.
23:09
So that would be the $35 model
23:09
<shogunx>
Does the device support networking? Is there Wi-Fi?
23:09
The Model B version of the device includes 10/100 wired Ethernet. There is no Ethernet on the Model A version (which we expect to be taken up mostly by the education market), but Wi-Fi will be available via a standard USB dongle.
23:09
heh
23:09
beat me to it.
23:09
<alkisg>
:)
23:09
<shogunx>
umm, ok. 35.
23:09
still cheap like nickel beer night.
23:10
<alkisg>
I had a lot of time since I last looked in that page, I think I'd only seen the A model
23:10
Yeah... you'd need to buy the power adapter separately, right?
23:11
PSU or however else it's called
23:11
<shogunx>
$35 for a thin client board that can be hacked into the back of and adequately drive a 23" display sounds pretty good to me.
23:11
well, i tackle that a little different.
23:11
all the ltsp systems i put out there run on solar power.
23:12
so i regulate to 12 and 5 when necessary coming off my @12V battery bank anyway.
23:12
no inverters... no wall warts.
23:12
low voltage DC from source to load.
23:13
<alkisg>
Sounds nice, as long as they don't want to work with them at nights :D
23:13
<shogunx>
thats what the battery bank in fot
23:13
for ^^
23:13
<vagrantc>
how big of a solar array for how much battery runtime for a lab of how many clients?
23:14
<shogunx>
and the panel array and battery bank can keep it going 24/7 if necessary, tho most close down their clients and displays at 8 or 9.
23:14
vagrantc, i oversize the array and bank a bit to ensure 5 9's on the power system.
23:14
<vagrantc>
sure
23:15
<shogunx>
the last one i put in i used 6x 135 Kyocera panels.
23:15
there were 3 strings of 400Ah 6V batteries, 2 batteries in series per string
23:16
so 1200Ah @ 20h rate @ 12VDC.
23:17
<vagrantc>
impressive
23:17
<shogunx>
this powers a dual core turion server w 4gb of memory, a 24 port10/100 2 port 10/100/1000 cisco hub, 5 geode based thin clients with 23" led backlit displays.
23:17
and some basic UBNT wifi gear.
23:18
if the panels blow off the roof, it will keep the whole network running for a week.
23:18
<alkisg>
What are the power requirements? The device is powered by 5v micro USB. You can read more about it here.
23:18
==> so if I have a usb hub in my monitor, that would be enough to power it?!
23:18
<shogunx>
or if you turn of the terminals, it will run the server for a month.
23:18
yep
23:18
or I just use a DC-DC converter.
23:19
<alkisg>
I can even buy usb hubs with 5€, those should do as well
23:19
<shogunx>
i like the geode clients, but they are getting long in the tooth, and do not support reasonable resolutions.
23:19
they take 4-5W each.
23:20
<alkisg>
So clients under 40€... can't wait :)
23:20
<shogunx>
ARM should lower that and improve performance as well, particularly on the display.
23:26
there are some pics the most recent install going in interspersed in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTpsMK61S3w
23:35
<alkisg>
"So in theory, could I power the Raspberry Pi off one port of a powered USB hub? Then also plug that USB hub back into the Raspberry Pi and use it to power my external hard drive? So then I only have one power supply to plug into the wall?" ==> they say that's doable, so we get multiple usb ports + power at the price of a single hub, very good
23:38
<shogunx>
:)
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23:38
<shogunx>
clients under 4W too!
23:40
and then we put the usb hub, the display, and the raspberry pi board in one chassis, with a power bus and the necessary DC-DC conversion or regulation, and booya!
23:41
btw vagrantc, you could go up to about 20 clients 8 hours a day on that solar power supply without a problem.
23:44
each panel gets a breaker, and breakers seperate the panels from the charge controller, the charge controller from the batteries, and the the batteries from the load. morningstar ts-60 charge controller.
23:44
battery neg is connected to earth.
23:47
<vagrantc>
shogunx: very cool
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23:49
<shogunx>
when i say open source i mean it:)
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