IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 8 February 2009   (all times are UTC)

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01:32
<pembo13>
what is required to change the ip address of the bridge interface?
01:32
i would like to put it on the same subnet as my eth1
01:35
better Q, why is the bridge network kept seperate from the network used by the clients?
01:36
<Ryan52>
huh?
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01:37
<Ryan52>
well, what do you mean by network?
01:37
<pembo13>
Ryan52: rereferring to the network address space
01:38
i have eth0 connected to my local lan of 192.168.1.0
01:38
and i'm going to set eth1 to 192.168.3.0
01:38
<Ryan52>
and what about the bridge?
01:39
<johnny>
lemme guess.. it's fedora..
01:39
<pembo13>
i was considering just adding the ltspbr0 to the 192.168.3.0 network, but i am wondering why it is on its own network, of 172.31.100.0
01:39
<Ryan52>
johnny, of course.
01:39
<pembo13>
johnny: is that a problem?
01:39
<johnny>
no.. it's just the only implementation that does the thing with the bridge
01:39
<pembo13>
ok
01:40
Ryan52: well i'm just trying to understand the need for/logic/rational behind having the bridge on a seperate net
01:40
<Ryan52>
pembo13, oh, ok. you don't really get how bridges works...lemme try to explain.
01:40
it's not on a separate network.
01:40
when you add eth1 to your bridge.
01:40
eth1 no longer has an ip address.
01:40
so you set up the bridge with the ip address that eth1 would have.
01:40
it isn't the most intuitive...at all....but does that make sense?
01:41
<pembo13>
yah.. i guess it doesn't work like a hardware bridge then
01:41
fair enough
01:41
<johnny>
so you can run a dhcp server on it.. and not mess with anything else pembo13
01:41
<pembo13>
so is 172.31.100.0 just a randomly chown net?
01:41
<johnny>
not random.. just unlikely to conflict
01:41
<pembo13>
i would like to keep things consistent and have a 192.168.x.0 net
01:41
<Ryan52>
yes, that's just the default.
01:41
defaults are sposed to be changed :)
01:41
<johnny>
pembo13, it's not worth the hassle
01:41
<pembo13>
cool
01:42
i could probably google this, but quick Q...
01:42
how does ltsp do the X? is it X forwarding? VNC? or something else?
01:42
<Ryan52>
"ssh -X server"
01:42
<pembo13>
cool
01:43
my first attempt was a little too idea, hoping to try it with lower end clients
01:44
firefox does this semi stupid thing of only allowing one process per user, is there any way around this?
01:45
ie. can a single user login from multiple places and use firefox?
01:45
<Ryan52>
use different users.
01:45
<pembo13>
aiight, figured as much
01:45
<Ryan52>
are you trying to do the equivalent of anonymous login?
01:45
<pembo13>
nah
01:45
i just didn't go as far as creating test users, so i logged in as myself the first time
01:45
<Ryan52>
ah, ok.
01:45
<pembo13>
and tried firefox and had to close it on the test server before i could use it on the client
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01:46
<pembo13>
not a big deal, just wanted to know if there was a way around it
01:46
<johnny>
not reliably
01:46
if you run it like -a someprofile -P someprofile it'll work
01:46
i do that myself for testing sites
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01:49
<pembo13>
johnny: cool, this is all fun and testing for now
01:50
my only real issue so far is that I need to get more old machines to play with it on
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04:41
<xrmx>
hi, anybody has a linux config suitable for ebox sx 2300 to share? debian lenny stock kernel gives me a stack trace which i think comes form missing math emulation
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08:32* cyberorg greets ogra :)
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08:51
<jhutchins_lt>
Has there been any progress with flash audio or local USB devices recently?
08:51
<ogra>
wht progress would you expect ?
08:51
<johnny>
progress no.. it's been working for years :)
08:51
<ogra>
works fine since several releases
08:53
<jhutchins_lt>
Ah, I see there are RPM's out as of this past week.
08:53
johnny: Sorry, flash audio doesn't work in debian ltsp.
08:54
Not in the current release, etch-n-half and ltsp5.
08:54
<ogra>
??
08:54
why shouldnt it work
08:55
you should be a bit more specific :)
08:55
it definately works for tons of other people
08:55
<jhutchins_lt>
The debian packages use non-standard audio drivers and flash expects alsa.
08:55
<johnny>
you might need to upgrade your flash
08:56
<jammcq>
ogra: howdie Ollie
08:56
<johnny>
that's what the libflashsupport crap was about
08:56
<ogra>
which debian package, which "non-standard" audio drivers do you mean ?
08:57
<jhutchins_lt>
They don't use alsa.
08:57
<ogra>
sure
08:57
who is *they*
08:57
the flash packages in debian ?
08:57
<johnny>
if the drivers don't use alsa, you're kinda stuck
08:58
oh wait.. there is that executable. aoss
08:58
wait. that's the opposite
08:58
<ogra>
heh
08:58
hey jammcq
08:58
<jhutchins_lt>
ogra yes, the ltsp packages in debian do not use alsa.
08:59
<johnny>
that is not the case
08:59
<ogra>
jhutchins_lt, they surely do if the HW is capable
08:59
<jhutchins_lt>
?
08:59
<johnny>
they only use what linux uses
08:59
<ogra>
alsa is unsed by default on the thin clients
08:59
on al distros
08:59
<johnny>
it's all pulseaudio
08:59
<ogra>
*all
08:59
<johnny>
mapped to alsa
09:00
<ogra>
right, alsa is definately used in ubuntu and debian for driving your card, pulse is definately used everywhere for doing the network transport
09:00
s/everywhere/everywhere in ltsp/
09:00
<jhutchins_lt>
Wow. It's really frustrating to have to defend the fact that you're having a problem when what you were looking for was help solving it. Give me a few minutes to duplicate all the work I did on this last week and I'll document it for you all.
09:00
<johnny>
jhutchins_lt, is there is a problem with alsa, it's your driver.. not ltsp
09:01
<jhutchins_lt>
If I weren't having a problem, I wouldn't have asked.
09:01
<johnny>
we know you're having the problem
09:01
just that the cause is probably not what you think
09:01
try not to get so defensive
09:01
let us.. help you
09:01
<jhutchins_lt>
And no, it's no thte driver, flash audio works fine with Mandriva on a flash dirve.
09:01
<ogra>
jhutchins_lt, right, nobody doubts you have a problem
09:02
<jhutchins_lt>
Debian bug 510620.
09:02
I would love it if I could just configure my way out of this.
09:02
<ogra>
but be sure on the client the system uses alsa ... on top of this pulse is running and listening for network streams from the desktop session
09:02
<jhutchins_lt>
That and get local USB devices working would be great.
09:02
ogra: The client does not use alsa.
09:02
<ogra>
if you have a problem, its very likely the configuration server side
09:02
<jhutchins_lt>
Give me a moment for a citation...
09:03
<ogra>
hw did you verify the client doesnt use alsa ?
09:03
*how
09:04
<jhutchins_lt>
partly through asking about the problem here...
09:05* ogra is definately sure alsa-utils and libasound are a part of a debian client chroot since years ... and the default kernel definately has the alsa modules builtin in the kernl package
09:05
<jhutchins_lt>
Ok, I guess I have to do some more reading and track this back down again, I thought I'd found out at least what the problem is.
09:06
The following refers to k12linux, which is Fedora based but appears to have the same problem. Likely you've dealt with it enough that the solution appears trivial and obvious to you: http://www.k12ltsp.org/mediawiki/index.php/How_to_setup_Flash_Player_9_with_esd-pulse_audio_sound_support
09:07
I'm going to go re-research and re-define the problem so I can ask for help more intelligently.
09:07
<mih>
the sound and the firefox flash plugin are working - at least on my ubuntu intrepid ltsp + dell (fat) client
09:07
<ogra>
if you use flash9 you need to use libflashsupport
09:08
<mih>
I have a similar problem with sound but in rdesktop...
09:08
<ogra>
(which might or might not run stable on your distro, libflashsupport is crappy and a matter of luck)
09:09
if you are using flash10 libflashsupport isnt needed and flash should properly work
09:09
note that this hasnt to do anything with alsa ... its a server side issue with the pulseaudio stream
09:10
<mih>
could you help me with a similar problem ?
09:11* ogra has no clue about rdesktop ... your best bet might be Gadi if he comes around
09:11
<mih>
ok
09:12
<ogra>
and for fat client specific stuff nubae is your man
09:15
<johnny>
jhutchins_lt, i wouldn't recommend anything less than flash10 tho
09:16
there's even a new alpha that lets you have 64bit flash.. without the fake plugin wrapper thingy
09:16
<jhutchins_lt>
I love how when you search for docs, especially for debian, you get great documentation that pertains only to the previous three relases and nothing current. Still digging.
09:17
<ogra>
!debian
09:17
<ltspbot>
ogra: "debian" is is a GNU/Linux based operating system that makes an excellent LTSP server. You can find it at http://www.debian.org. for information about LTSP on debian see http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP
09:17
<ogra>
!docs
09:17
<ltspbot>
ogra: "docs" is For the most current documentation, see http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtspDocumentationUpstream
09:17
<jhutchins_lt>
Hrm, there's one problem, flash 9.
09:20
<ogra>
get libflashsupport
09:21
(and hope it doesnt crash your browser, i'm not sure how stable it runs on debian)
09:22
or get flash10
09:25* ogra reboots to test some fixes in the intel driver ... bbl
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09:30
<mih>
meanwhile let me tell you my problem and maybe it's something easy to fix... and maybe someone could figure it out...
09:32
I have installed an ltsp on ubuntu 8.10. I want to connect the clients (fat dell clients) through the server to an TS 2008. Everything is fine with the script (in lts - SCREEN_08=rdesktop, RDP_SERVER..., RDP_OPDTIONS sound:local,...) but no audio on the client.
09:33
anyone ?
09:34
<alkisg>
Do you have speakers on the server? Does the sound come out of them?
09:34
<mih>
yes !
09:34
<alkisg>
I had to use padsp to transfer the audio to the clients with rdesktop...
09:34
<mih>
flash player also works
09:35
<alkisg>
...but I don't think that was with local rdesktop, I think I ran it normally (inside a session). It's been a long time and I was only testing, I don't remember the details, just that I had to use padsp.
09:39
<mih>
(nope, doesn't work) - I've just logged in with a user via ldm and run from terminal padsp rdesktop [options] - nothing...
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09:53
<mih>
has anyone tried ubuntu 8.10 lts > SCREEN_0X rdesktop with sound ? is this really working ?
09:54
<johnny>
if nobody answers.. try back on a week day
09:54
or the forums of course..
09:55
<mih>
I surely do
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09:56
<xrmx>
removing /opt/ltsp is enough to start a new client image from scratch?
09:57
<mih>
not quite
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09:58
<mih>
you have to edit /etc/inetd.conf to see last lines, if u have to add another image or rename it
09:59
<ogra>
if you just rebuild the values will be identical
09:59
so yes, usually wiping the contents of /opt/ltsp and running ltsp-build-client should suffice
10:00
<xrmx>
and /var/lib/tftpboot too right?
10:00
<ogra>
the scripts should honor if there are setups that match and just re-use them
10:00
/opt/ltsp is enough
10:01
<xrmx>
thanks
10:02
<mih>
ogra, could you tell me if there is a problem with rdesktop + sound ? I'm trying for a while and no luck, now, I entered the channel :)
10:03
<ogra>
i never used rdesktop, so i cant :)
10:03
no windows machines anywhere around me since years
10:03
<mih>
I envy you !!!!
10:05
as I was told, Gadi is the right person ?
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10:05
<ogra>
he did y lot with rdesktop, yes
10:05
s/y/a/
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10:55
<jhutchins_ltsp>
For some reason, now that I've replaced the libflashplayer.so with 10.0 I have no flash plugins in iceweasel or konqueror.
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11:00
<xrmx>
shouldn't installing the debian package of the kernel i've compiled in the chroot suffice with debian ltsp5/lenny? i have FATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/2.6.26/modules.dep: No such file or directory errors
11:00
<ogra>
did you run ltsp-update-kernels ?
11:01
<xrmx>
ogra: yop
11:01
<ogra>
and did you use the default package and just changed the config ?
11:01
(if you just roll your own package from the kernel it might miss maintainer scripts)
11:01
<xrmx>
ogra: yes, my thin client oops with stock one
11:02
<ogra>
what exactly did you change ?
11:02
<xrmx>
ogra: removed tons of stuff and added math emulation
11:03
<vagrantc>
xrmx: what's your thin client?
11:03
<xrmx>
vagrantc: ebox 2300sx
11:03
<ogra>
eeek
11:03* ogra runs away screaming
11:03
<vagrantc>
yeah, what ogra said
11:04
those little things are more trouble than they're worth.
11:05
<xrmx>
vagrantc: that's the only cheap small machine you can find in my city :(
11:06
<ogra>
your city doesnt have ebay ? :)
11:06
<vagrantc>
xrmx: all i can say is "good luck" ... if you actually get them to boot, you will have performance problems, sound won't likely work, and probably a handful of other issues with them.
11:06
<ogra>
i.e. that thing you can find on the internet
11:06
<xrmx>
said that, do you have any idea on what i'm doing wrong with the kernel?
11:06
i don't need sound
11:07
<ogra>
X will be a pain on them
11:07
<xrmx>
ogra: what other stuff i can find on ebay do you suggest?
11:08
in .eu possibly
11:08* ogra points to http://www.artecgroup.com/thincan/
11:08
<ogra>
similar price category and actually working
11:08
<vagrantc>
q-funk never did send me one of those...
11:09
<ogra>
well, he cant anymore
11:09
he's not working there anymore
11:09
<xrmx>
ogra: i've payed the 2300sx half that price, what about pcengines.ch alix?
11:09
<vagrantc>
heh. suppose that's why
11:09
<ogra>
you paid less than €100 ?
11:09
for an ebox ?
11:10
so they finally sell them for the price they are worth ? :)
11:10
like €20 :)
11:10
<xrmx>
ogra: around 100 € including 20% vat
11:10
<ogra>
the thincan is 100€
11:11
<xrmx>
ogra: so 2 units means really two :)
11:11
<ogra>
yes
11:11
:)
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11:12
<xrmx>
i don't have a time machine unfortunately
11:13
<ogra>
well, good luck with the ebox ... i stopped trying to get my hands dirty on them long ago
11:14
its painfull and the gains you get by all possible optiomizations are not worth the amount of time you have to put in for them
11:17
<mistik1>
that thincan looks really cool
11:18* mistik1 wonders if they would customize a model with 3 nics :)
11:19
<jhutchins_ltsp>
Well, this is just a blast. As soon as I replace libflshplayer.zo 9 with 10, iceweasel no longer sees it.
11:19
If I copy 9 back, it works just fine.
11:19
Except, of course, I have no sound.
11:19
<jammcq>
jhutchins_ltsp: how did you install 10?
11:21
<mistik1>
hey jammcq
11:21* vagrantc wonders what the next web-oriented multimedia platform to plauge free software will be
11:21
<mistik1>
How've you been
11:21
<jammcq>
hey mistik1, how are you my friend
11:21
<jhutchins_ltsp>
1) downloaded tar.gz from adobe, expanded, copied libflashplayer.so to the actual file under /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree, made sure plugins from /usr/lib/mozilla, /usr/lib/iceweasel, etc. pointed to it.
11:21
<mistik1>
jammcq: I cant complain
11:21
<ogra>
wrong place
11:21
iceweasle uses xulrunner iirc
11:22
your plugins need to be in the xulrunner subdirs
11:22
<jhutchins_ltsp>
2) Downloaded fresh copy of tarball, expanded, created "component" directories next to "plugin" directories in /usr/lib/iceweasel, ran installer script.
11:22
<jammcq>
mistik1: cool. things are busy here. that's a good thing.
11:22
<ogra>
(at least its that way for firefox on ubuntu)
11:22
<mistik1>
jammcq: yea, pretty heavy work load
11:22
<xrmx>
/usr/lib/iceweasel/plugins/ is fine on debian
11:22
<ogra>
oh, then they hacked up firefox
11:23
<jhutchins_ltsp>
ogra: The file in /usr/lib/iceweasel is a symlink. If I replace the file in /usr/lib/flashplugin-nonfree with the .9 file, iceweasel sees it, if I use the 10 file it doesn't.
11:23
<ogra>
i think that dir isnt used anymore since ancient FF 2.x days
11:23
<jhutchins_ltsp>
It's netscape. They put stuff anywhere they please depending on version.
11:23
Most distros try to track all the locations down and use symlinks.
11:24
<xrmx>
jhutchins_ltsp: which distro are you using?
11:24
<jhutchins_ltsp>
I have no idea why iceweasel can't see the new file.
11:24
xrmx: etch-n-half debian.
11:24
<jammcq>
what is 'etch-n-half' ?
11:24
<xrmx>
flash 10 needs a glibc more recente that the one in etch last time i checked
11:24
<jhutchins_ltsp>
jammcq: updated etch.
11:24
<ogra>
jammcq, not completely sid :)
11:24
<jammcq>
hmm
11:25
<jhutchins_ltsp>
jammcq: http://wiki.debian.org/EtchAndAHalf
11:25* jammcq can't keep track of debian versions
11:25
<jammcq>
so it's Etch with backports
11:26
<jhutchins_ltsp>
looks like glibc is 2.3.62
11:27
The installer contains code that checks glibc, and it doesn't complain.
11:27
At what point to I need to re-generate the chroot image in ltsp for updates of the core debian to appear?
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11:28
<vagrantc>
jammcq: it's officially supported etch with tiny number of backported packages, namely, the linux kernel.
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11:29
<jhutchins_ltsp>
Ah hah! Kernel on server != kernel on client!
11:29
<ogra>
doesnt really affect flash :)
11:31
<jhutchins_ltsp>
Ok, but when do I need to run -build-client, when -update-image, and when -update-kernel?
11:32
<ogra>
on debian you dont need -update-image at all
11:32
-build-client to build a client from scratch ...
11:33
-update-kernel if you updated the client kernel package inside the chroot
11:33
<mih>
I have one question for X - what should I do to get acceleration for Intel GMA3100 ? do I need to edit/put a script like xorg.conf in chroot, with all the necessary settings from the thin client (graphic card,etc) ?\
11:34
<jhutchins_ltsp>
ogra: Any suggestions on how to resolve the sound problem?
11:34
<ogra>
jhutchins_lt, just make sure to install flash10 properly or keep flash9 and install libflashsupport
11:35
as i'm saying since hours :)
11:35
mih, should just work out of the box
11:35
at least in relatively recent releases (ubuntu, fedora)
11:36
<mih>
ok then, more testing needed here. Still waiting for that sound :) in rdesktop...
11:36
<jhutchins_ltsp>
ogra: But when I "install flash10 properly", iceweasel can't see it.
11:36
<vagrantc>
hopefully debian releases in a week or so, and i can finally start seriously making lenny backports for ltsp! :)
11:37
<ogra>
jhutchins_lt, well, i have not much clue about icewaesle (i'm ubuntu developer, our firefox is unhacked :) ) and i never install flash from a tgz
11:37
<jhutchins_ltsp>
ogra: How do I install libflashsupport?
11:37
<ogra>
vagrantc, so you bet on lenny being out before jaunty ? :)
11:37
<johnny>
it's a package
11:38
jhutchins_lt, it's a package
11:38
<ogra>
jhutchins_lt, there are packages somewhere, no idea where the debian ones are, ubuntu had it in the archive
11:38
<vagrantc>
ogra: heh. sure hope so. :)
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11:47
<jhutchins_ltsp>
ogra: Ok, think I got it.
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11:51
<jhutchins_lt>
ogra: Ok, thanks, found it at about the third or fifth page with a dead link by hacking back into their ftp directory, installed it. I crashed once, but is working now.
11:51
Some days....
11:51
<ogra>
:)
11:51
<xrmx>
how much should take booting with nfs?
11:51
<jhutchins_lt>
Now they're complaining that the sound doesn't sync very well.
11:51
No pleasing some people.
11:51
<ogra>
yeah, it migth crash more often, libflashsupport is a half hearted hack around a bug in communication between flash and pulse
11:52
<jhutchins_lt>
Sigh.
11:52
So debian is due to release soon (I hear that's a perpetual condition), there are chances that updated packages will address this and other issues.
11:52
Now on to configuring the video for the new widescreen monitor.
11:52* jhutchins_lt cringes.
11:53* ogra isnt sure the flash-nonfree package will be upgraded to v10 before lenny releases
11:53
<ogra>
its debian after all ... if you use it, expect more issues with adding nonfree stuff
11:54
<xrmx>
what does "IP-Config: no response after 180 secs - giving up" mean?
11:54
<ogra>
looks like you didnt get a dhcp response
11:55
<xrmx>
ogra: doesn't booting with pxe imply a working dhcp?
12:05
<jammcq>
xrmx: any chance you have 2 nics in the client?
12:05
<vagrantc>
in debian, flashplugin-nonfree will basically only be release via unofficial backports...
12:06
<xrmx>
jammcq: nope, just one
12:07
my fault dhcp was not authorative
12:08
mmm looks that's not the cause :(
12:08
<jhutchins_lt>
ogra: Yeah, still trying to learn the debian way. Five different documented methods, none of which will actually quite work.
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15:53
<Remaille>
hi all
15:54
I have a list of 600 users in a txt file. My LTSP server is in a windows network (win 2003 for the server)
15:54
is there a simple way to create those 600 accounts on the LTSP server ?
15:55
or maybe to have the LTSP server link directly the active directory ?
15:55
thanks
15:58
<alkisg>
Remaille: `man newusers` may help...
15:59
<Remaille>
thanks alkisg : i didn't know that command :)
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16:12
<vagrantc>
isn't active directory basically an LDAP implementation?
16:15* ogra scratches his head
16:15
<ogra>
root@nslu2:/home/ogra# strace sudo -i -u ogra 2>&1|grep Permission
16:15
execve("/bin/bash", ["-bash"], [/* 15 vars */]) = -1 EACCES (Permission denied)
16:15
root@nslu2:/home/ogra#
16:17
<Ryan52>
ogra, /bin/bash's permissions are 700?
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19:11
<stgraber>
vagrantc: hey, what's the status of ltspfs in Debian ?
19:13
vagrantc: Ubuntu enters feature freeze next week so I'll soon need a new ltspfs and am wondering if I should wait for a new ltspfs in experimental or tag a new ltspfs and upload directly to Ubuntu.
19:24
<vagrantc>
stgraber: i didn't tag ltspfs-trunk because it had outstanding issues, so i have no plans to upload to debian
19:25
<Ryan52>
are the issues fixed yet?
19:25
or is anybody intending on fixing them?
19:27
<vagrantc>
i haven't touched it in two weeks... kind of hit a dead end with it.
19:29
<Ryan52>
oh, ok...what are the issues? /me hasn't yet messed with ltspfs's source, but kind of wants to (:
19:30* vagrantc uploads ltsp 5.1.58-1 to debian experimental
19:30
<vagrantc>
Ryan52: i forget exactly, but it had to do with local mounting and such
19:31
stgraber: i might consider uploading a patched version with a couple fixes pulled from ltspfs-trunk ... but the local mounting introduced some unpredictable behavior that i would like to have sorted out.
19:32
stgraber: like mounting with utf8 for when vfat, iso9660, ntfs
19:53xmedex has joined #ltsp
19:53
<xmedex>
hello
19:53
someone please help me
19:53
hello
19:55
<vagrantc>
!question
19:55
<ltspbot>
vagrantc: "question" is if you have a question about ltsp, please go ahead and ask it, and people will respond if they can. please also mention the linux distro and release you're using. :)
19:56
<xmedex>
my thin client wont run if i using 3com switch...why???
19:56
<vagrantc>
xmedex: when does it work?
19:56
<xmedex>
!im using edubuntu 7.10
19:56
<ltspbot>
xmedex: Error: "im" is not a valid command.
19:57
<xmedex>
if i using another switch..its ok
19:57
im getting weird on that
19:57
that switch is 3com baseline 2226 plus
19:57
<vagrantc>
my first guess is that it's a smart switch and you need to configure it
19:58
<xmedex>
how to configure it??
19:58
<vagrantc>
that's outside the scope of LTSP...
19:58
<xmedex>
really
19:58
<vagrantc>
you'll have to look up documentation on-line for that
19:58
<xmedex>
ok
19:59
another one is why my hp thin client wont boot if im using ubuntu 8.10 on my server
19:59
<stgraber>
vagrantc: ok, I'll probably go with tagging ltspfs and uploading it to Ubuntu, I need all new features in by thursday next week, then I can still upload bugfixes :)
19:59
<vagrantc>
other thin clients work fine?
20:00
<xmedex>
no
20:00
yes
20:00
other thin client work fine
20:00
not with hp thin client
20:00
why??
20:01
<vagrantc>
xmedex: what happens? do you get error messages?
20:01
<xmedex>
memory failed
20:01
on that thin client
20:02
<vagrantc>
xmedex: same one works with edubuntu 7.10 ?
20:02
<xmedex>
no..that version work fine
20:03
<vagrantc>
xmedex: can you give a little more information about the thin client? what type of processor, ram ...
20:03
model number...
20:03
<xmedex>
my thin client is hp t5525
20:04
right now..im doing my thin client project at school
20:05
all my thin client is hp t5525
20:05
and i have 4 server running
20:06
<vagrantc>
i'm not familiar with that particular model ... and not really so familiar with ubuntu either
20:06
<xmedex>
then?
20:08
<vagrantc>
xmedex: have you search online for the error message you get?
20:08
<stgraber>
what exactly doesn't work with them ? I haven't tried that kind of hardware with 7.10 but I have some similar thin clients on 8.10 and they usually work fine.
20:09
btw, if that's a new project, why 7.10 that'll be out of support in two months ?
20:11
<xmedex>
because if im using 8.10, my thin client wont running
20:12
<stgraber>
why ?
20:12
<xmedex>
are you using hp t5525 too
20:12
ok..
20:12
<stgraber>
I'm using thin clients witth very similar CPU and video card yes
20:12
<xmedex>
after i installed ubuntu 8.10 on my server
20:13
<stgraber>
(WySE with VIA C7 and VIA S3 video card)
20:13
<xmedex>
then i boot my hp t5525
20:13
ok..its running and loading
20:13
but its stack and flash a green screean
20:14
get a message that its says memory failed
20:15
so??.
20:16
<stgraber>
when do you get that green screen ? after the Ubuntu splash screen or befoore ?
20:16
<xmedex>
after
20:16
after that flash..its blank
20:16
until the end
20:18
<stgraber>
ok, looks like a X issue. Did you try setting SCREEN_07=shell in the lts.conf to get a shell instead of X ? it'd help debugging
20:18
or booting the thin client from an usb key or usb cdrom using a LiveUSB or LiveCD ?
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20:19
<stgraber>
hey Gadi_eeepc
20:19
<Gadi_eeepc>
hey!
20:20
so, I had the "pleasure" of setting up an intrepid server the - er - "normal" way
20:20
<stgraber>
Gadi_eeepc: oh :) so ? :)
20:21
<Gadi_eeepc>
man, did they make the Netowrk Manager stuff terrible for static IPs
20:21
<stgraber>
yeah, I tend to just remove it when installing ltsp
20:21
<Gadi_eeepc>
lol
20:21
<stgraber>
(not that it's not possible to keep it :))
20:22
<Gadi_eeepc>
well, I was determined to have it done "properly"
20:22
<stgraber>
if you edit /etc/network/interfaces, NM is supposed not to mess with your interfaces :)
20:22
<Gadi_eeepc>
well, I did itt by "adding" a new connection and removing the auto ones
20:23
I think it still didnt get the resolv.conf right
20:23
I dunno
20:23
<stgraber>
oh, using the GUI ?
20:23
<Gadi_eeepc>
yeah
20:23
<stgraber>
ah, never tried that :)
20:23
<Gadi_eeepc>
I was determined to not touch vi
20:23
just to see if it could be done
20:23
<stgraber>
but why did you have to change your network config ?
20:23
<Gadi_eeepc>
for static IP
20:24
<stgraber>
if you install with the alternate CD and have two network cards it'll configure everything automatically
20:24
<Gadi_eeepc>
well, a I didnt install from alternate, and b it still wouldnt make eth1 static (would it?)
20:25
<stgraber>
so that's not a "normal" install :)
20:25
<Gadi_eeepc>
what?
20:25
to want only static IPs on a server?
20:25
I would think thats pretty normal
20:25
:)
20:26
<stgraber>
nah, I'm talking about installing ltsp on top of an existing system :)
20:26
<Gadi_eeepc>
whats ridiculous is, didnt anybody test the NM stuff?
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20:26
<Gadi_eeepc>
I mean with a static IP address?
20:26
<stgraber>
the "normal" way is to use the alternate CD, tell it to set the right network card as static then continue with the intall
20:26
<Gadi_eeepc>
thats pretty basic
20:27
<stgraber>
and you get one NIC static on the internet and the other static with the DHCP running
20:27
<Gadi_eeepc>
ah
20:27
still - what does it do? edit NM settings?
20:27
or network/interfaces?
20:27
<stgraber>
nope, it just generated netowkr/interfaces
20:27
<Gadi_eeepc>
ah
20:27
<stgraber>
then NM detects that network/interfaces has been changed and will switch to "manual"
20:28
and will stop messing with the NICs :)
20:28
<Gadi_eeepc>
well, I think thats what I'll have to do tomorrow
20:28
still, say this was just a normal server
20:28
would I not want to configure static NICs through the GUI?
20:28
and should that not work?
20:29
<stgraber>
maybe :)
20:29
<Gadi_eeepc>
otherwise, why have it in the GUI?
20:29
<stgraber>
in fact that GUI is not part of NM
20:29
that's the regular gnome network GUI that edits /etc/network/interfaces
20:29
<Gadi_eeepc>
well, ubuntu ships it
20:29
<stgraber>
and then NM should detect that and switch to manual
20:30
<Gadi_eeepc>
I dont thiink it edits interfaaces
20:30
thats the problem
20:30
I think it edit NM settings
20:30
*edits
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21:17
<try2free>
i can't login to my ltsp server. what should i do? yesterday ltsp server ok.
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21:19
<davidj>
What's changed?
21:19
When you say "can't login", what are the symptoms?
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21:22
<try2free>
davidj: after input username and password, back to login screen. no message.
21:33
<jammcq>
davidj: hey
21:39
<try2free>
no activity here?
21:42
<synchris>
it doesnt realy sounds like an lstp problem
21:42
;p
21:42
ltsp*
21:42
bah
21:47
<davidj>
try2free: That sounds like you're account is disabled or expired.
21:47
jammcq!
21:48npman has quit IRC
21:48
<davidj>
jammcq: How are you?
21:48
<synchris>
or season manager having problems to load DE
21:50
<jammcq>
davidj: doing fine. how's things down in NC ?
21:51
<davidj>
Not bad at all. The weather today was beautify, it felt like the middle of April.
21:51
My ankle's about healed.
21:51
<jammcq>
yeah, we had 50 yesterday and 42 today
21:51
oh cool
21:51
<davidj>
Work's been fun, too. How about you?
21:51
<jammcq>
been VERY busy. good busy.
21:52
<davidj>
Same here. My problems have generally been good ones (how to get it all done on time).
21:53mistik1 has quit IRC
21:57
<davidj>
21:58
<try2free>
davidj: how to enable? because i did not anything to disable login.
21:58
<davidj>
try2free: It depends on what the problem is.
21:58
try2free: Do you have root access to the server?
21:59
<try2free>
yes
21:59
davidj: yes
22:00
<davidj>
Then on the server console, sign in as root in text mode.
22:00
I'd recommend you never sign in as root in graphical mode.
22:02
<try2free>
ok then?
22:02CaScAdE^FarAway has quit IRC
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22:02
<davidj>
Then as root, su to the user with "su - $USERNAME"
22:02
What happens when you su?
22:03
<try2free>
i log in as a user
22:04
then?
22:05
<davidj>
Are you logged in as the user?
22:05
<try2free>
yes
22:05
<davidj>
ok, exit back to root.
22:06
That tells us that the user account isn't disabled.
22:06
<try2free>
ok
22:07
<davidj>
Run "tail -f /var/log/secure", then go to a terminal and try to log in as the user.
22:07
Come back to the console, and read me what it says.
22:08
<try2free>
ok i try
22:08
tail: cannot open `/var/log/secure' for reading: No such file or directory
22:08
tail: no files remaining
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22:10
<davidj>
try2free: What distro are you using on the server?
22:10
mistik1: Hey!
22:12pembo13 has quit IRC
22:13
<try2free>
davidj: ubuntu
22:13
davidj: ubuntu 8.04
22:14
<davidj>
try2free: Do you know where ubuntu keeps the security logs?
22:16
<try2free>
no
22:19
<davidj>
try2free: Try "ls /var/log" ; do you see "secure" ?
22:19
<try2free>
no
22:20
<davidj>
try2free: Do you see anything?
22:20
<Gadi_eeepc>
try2free: /var/log/auth.log
22:20
for ssh auth
22:21* Gadi_eeepc waves to davidj
22:21
<davidj>
Gadi_eeepc: Hey!
22:21
<try2free>
Gadi_eeepc: ok, that file exist
22:21
<davidj>
try2free: OK, "tail -f /var/log/auth.log" on the console, then try to log in on a terminal as the user.
22:22
Gadi_eeepc: How are you?
22:22
<Gadi_eeepc>
try2free: have your ssh keys or networking changed?
22:22
davidj: ok
22:22
et tu?
22:22
<try2free>
Gadi_eeepc: i never change anything just sudo apt-get update -> upgrade everyday
22:23
<Gadi_eeepc>
try2free: Im gonna take a wild guess:
22:23
do this:
22:23
sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys
22:23
sudo ltsp-update-image
22:23
reboot the client
22:23
try logging in again
22:23
<stgraber>
Gadi_eeepc: oh, you just fixed https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ltsp/+bug/326399 ?
22:23
<davidj>
Gadi_eeepc: I'm fine, thanks. My ankle's about healed.
22:24
<Gadi_eeepc>
davidj: great news@!
22:24
stgraber: yeah - I was bored
22:24
:)
22:24
<stgraber>
Gadi_eeepc: cool, it was on my list for next week, thanks :)
22:24
<davidj>
*I* certainly am pleased. The cane got old really quickly.
22:24
<Gadi_eeepc>
no doubt
22:25
<stgraber>
Gadi_eeepc: Marc is the guy doing LTSP-Cluster deployments (I'm mainly doing the dev/testing part)
22:25
<Gadi_eeepc>
gotcha
22:27
<stgraber>
Gadi_eeepc: btw, if there are feature you'd like to be in Jaunty, hurry up, Feature Freeze is next thursday :)
22:28
<Gadi_eeepc>
really/
22:28
that came quick
22:28
<stgraber>
yeah, two months before the release.
22:30
<try2free>
Gadi_eeepc: still can't login
22:31
<davidj>
try2free: When you try, what shows up in auth.log?
22:31
<try2free>
davidj: everything seems ok in "tail -f /var/log/auth.log", still can't login
22:32
<davidj>
try2free: Does auth.log show a successful login?
22:32
<Gadi_eeepc>
try2free: check the user's .xsession-errors file
22:33
<try2free>
Gadi_eeepc: what to check? can i paste/send the file?
22:35
** Message: another SSH agent is running at: /tmp/ssh-UZMEC11985/agent.11985
22:36
davidj: not show successful login
22:37
<davidj>
try2free: Try logging in as the user on the console.
22:38
<try2free>
then?
22:43
i am created new user and can login to ltsp server successfull
22:43
so, how to fix old user?
22:44
<davidj>
Sign out.
22:44
Sign in as old user on console. Leave the "tail" running.
22:45
Look at auth.log. It should give you a hint about what the problem is.
22:45alkisg has joined #ltsp
22:45
<cyberorg>
Gadi_eeepc, hi, if LDM_SERVER is a list which IP is selected, the first or the last one?
22:46
<stgraber>
alkisg: morning
22:46
<try2free>
ok i try again
22:48
Feb 9 11:47:11 ubuntu-royal sshd[30300]: Accepted password for andrew from 192.168.1.218 port 58219 ssh2
22:48
Feb 9 11:47:11 ubuntu-royal sshd[30306]: pam_unix(sshd:session): session opened for user andrew by (uid=0)
22:48
that's all
22:49
<alkisg>
morning all!
22:49
<stgraber>
alkisg: got my mail ?
22:50
<alkisg>
Just booted the PC, gimme 1 sec...
22:52
stgraber: yeap, sure, I'd be glad to test. I'll give you vbox feedback today, and real classroom feedback tomorrow.
22:53
<stgraber>
alkisg: soundds good, it should fix most issues I heard about on IRC but I don't have any lab using the avahi stuff so can't really test
22:56
<alkisg>
stgraber: just that I don't have iTalc installed in the chroot (ancient clients with 64Mb RAM), if you also want feedback for that case, you could maybe talk to Lns as well.
22:57
<stgraber>
alkisg: I'll test the xinirc.d part of the change myself as it's also used for ltsp-cluster
22:58
<alkisg>
ok
22:58
<stgraber>
alkisg: btw, was that you who mentioned issues with OpenOffice 3.0 and thin clients ?
22:58
<alkisg>
No, maybe it was nubae?
22:58
<stgraber>
maybe.
22:59
a customer is asking for it to be deployed on over 3500 thin clients so if it'll fail I'd like to know :)
22:59
<alkisg>
Heh!!!
22:59
stgraber: up until when should I install jaunty to give as much feedback as I can?
22:59
for all ltsp-related things...
23:00
<stgraber>
well, you can try jaunty though at the moment you'll get a more recent LTSP using Intrepid + my PPA
23:00
<alkisg>
That's what I have right now
23:00
<davidj>
'night, everyone.
23:00
<alkisg>
But maybe some things could work in Intrepid and be broken in jaunty?
23:01davidj has quit IRC
23:01
<stgraber>
yeah, there was a race condition that made Jaunty to fail 50% of the time, I fixed this one this afternoon :)
23:01
I actually setup a ltsp-cluster network at home this weekend to debug Jaunty :)
23:01
<alkisg>
Ah, ok then! :)
23:02
<try2free>
davidj: then?
23:02
<stgraber>
and will borrow a few thin clients at the office tomorrow for testing with weird and buggy hardware (VIA and Geode)
23:03
doing tests with hyper-fast thin clients also help finding some race conditions so I'm actually using a Core2Duo 2.4Ghz as thin client here for testing :)
23:03
<alkisg>
Heh.. I had race conditions with ultra SLOW clients :) (300 MHz)
23:04
<stgraber>
yeah, found some on the geodes as well, these things are really slow ... almost 5 minutes to boot to ldm :)
23:04
(takes 20s with a recent thin client)
23:04
<alkisg>
Wow... maybe there's something wrong with them, 5 minutes is too much, it only takes 1 minute with my ancient celerons
23:08
<stgraber>
these Geodes are 400Mhz but with only 32kB of cache ... and almost nothing more than mmx :)
23:10
<cyberorg>
stgraber, yesterday we were checking get_host thing for load balancing, http://pastebin.com/d211fc23a
23:10rjune has joined #ltsp
23:10
<cyberorg>
what is the difference between that and ltsp-cluster?
23:11shrek has joined #ltsp
23:12
<stgraber>
that doesn't handle group of servers and doesn't load-balance based on the server load (number of user, CPU usage, memory usage, X sessions, bandwidth usage, ...)
23:13
<cyberorg>
netcat $i 9571 | grep rating | cut -d: -f2 gets the rating from the group of servers
23:14
<stgraber>
in our case, we can restrict a thin client to a pool of server or a single server
23:14
the application servers just push their status to the loadbalancer so that's the loadbalancer that actually does the math, so only one place to change
23:14
and that nc code will likely fail if the server is non-responsive
23:15
so you'd have to wait for it to timeout for each servers in the list
23:16
<cyberorg>
i tested it with one dead server first, get_hosts takes just a couple of seconds to return the list
23:17
<stgraber>
right, now try with 60 servers and 20 of them down :)
23:18
the time to get a server should never increase depending on the number of server you have or you won't scale
23:19
<cyberorg>
got it
23:20
can you change the wiki, and add which package needs to be installed on the primary server, other servers and clients?
23:22
stgraber, also i couldnt find any configuration information, what files do we have to modify to get it working
23:22
<stgraber>
nothing on the client and we usually split all of the other services, one by server (or VM)
23:23
on the client you just need a configuration file (there is a ltsp-build-client plugin for that)
23:23
for the config you need /etc/ltsp/lbsconfig.xml for the load-balancer and /etc/ltsp/ltsp-cluster-control.config.php for the control center
23:23
<cyberorg>
stgraber, we dont have that on suse :)
23:23
<stgraber>
cyberorg: well, it's in ltsp-trunk so ...
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23:24
<stgraber>
you just need to look and copy it to suse :)
23:24
<cyberorg>
ok
23:24
<stgraber>
for the configuration, look at the OpenVZ, even if you don't do it with OpenVZ, it explains what to configure for each service
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23:25
<cyberorg>
stgraber, i can't find ltsp-cluster-control.config.php anywhere
23:26
ltsp-cluster ltsp-cluster-control ltsp-cluster-lbclient ltsp-cluster-nxloadbalancer ltsp-cluster-accountmanager ltsp-cluster-lbagent ltsp-cluster-lbserver ltsp-cluster-pxeconfig
23:26
in any of the above folder
23:26
<stgraber>
hmm, right, it's probably a symlink, wait a sec
23:27
<cyberorg>
i set this up http://cyberorg.kicks-ass.org/lcc/Admin/admin.php without understanding any of what i was doing :P
23:28
it gives acces without any authentication
23:28
<alkisg>
stgraber: also, an annoying detail - when using the Ubuntu "guest session", ica complains that port 5800 is in use. Could that somehow go to a debug log instead of popping a window?
23:28
<stgraber>
cyberorg: ok, that's config.php in Admin/util/
23:29
<cyberorg>
yes that is why i modified
23:29
<stgraber>
alkisg: well, that'd need a patch in iTalc ... or to add some more magic to ica-launcher
23:29
<cyberorg>
*what
23:29
<stgraber>
cyberorg: well, looks like your control-center is working correctly :)
23:30
<cyberorg>
stgraber, nopes, http://cyberorg.kicks-ass.org/lcc/
23:30
<stgraber>
cyberorg: for the authentication, it's up to you to choose what kind of authentication you want using apache
23:30
<cyberorg>
stgraber, i didnt know where the folders should go
23:30
<stgraber>
Admin Terminal and Tech should be at the root of your web server
23:31
<cyberorg>
stgraber, as we are already using postgres, i think admin user needs to be configured using that
23:31
<stgraber>
and Admin be protected using apache's authentication (ldap, flatfile, whatever you like)
23:32
<cyberorg>
that would work too
23:32
<stgraber>
cyberorg: nope, we don't want to handle the authentication in our code, we did it and it was a pain :) using apache for that is a lot easier and a lot more flexible
23:32
as with 2.2 you can use several authentication backend, use some fallback authentication, ... apache is really good for that :)
23:34
<cyberorg>
stgraber, why isnt there index file here?
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23:35
<johnny>
stgraber, many of us.. do not use apache..
23:36
like me..
23:36
luckily few changes have to be made
23:36
to support other servers
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23:36
<stgraber>
johnny: well, we don't provide any apache-specific file and most web servers support similar authentication mechanism
23:36
<Ryan52>
johnny, which do you use?
23:37
<cyberorg>
stgraber, so just /etc/ltsp/getltscfg-cluster.conf in the client is enough?
23:37
<stgraber>
johnny: my point was more that unless you have to store user-specific informations, handling the authentication yourself is generally a pain and not really necessary
23:37
<johnny>
Ryan52, cherokee
23:38
truly stgraber :)
23:38
<stgraber>
cyberorg: yes, there are xinit rc.d scripts / ldm rc.d scripts and a few other places in ltsp that are checking for that file
23:38
cyberorg: so just adding that file will trigger all the ltsp-cluster bits in ltsp
23:38
<cyberorg>
and ltsp-cluster-client pacakge?
23:38
<stgraber>
doesn't exist anymore, it's been removed from Launchpad IIRC
23:39
<cyberorg>
can you pastebin the file, just want to see how it looks like in working set up :)
23:40
<johnny>
Ryan52, at least until the glibified lighty 2.x releases happen
23:40
lighttpd*
23:40
<stgraber>
cyberorg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/115868/
23:40
<johnny>
i was using lighttpd before.. but 1.4.x had broken proxy support, and 1.5.x wasn't ready
23:41
<stgraber>
cyberorg: the script in server/plugins/ltsp-build-client/Ubuntu/ now contains a generator asking the user for each of these variables and generating the config file
23:41
<Ryan52>
johnny, ah...why?
23:42
<stgraber>
(uploaded that this afternoon)
23:42
<johnny>
why what? Ryan52 ?
23:42
<Ryan52>
why not apache?
23:42
<johnny>
how about why apache?
23:42
apache does too much for what i need
23:42
and i use fastcgi and similiar methods for php,ruby,python
23:42
and if i'm gonna do that.. no need for all the excess infra
23:43
<Ryan52>
okie doke.
23:43
<alkisg>
johnny: how easy is its web interface? could a simple computer teacher use it?
23:43
<cyberorg>
stgraber, thats what i thought, i had just echo SERVER=$CLUSTER_CONTROL > /etc/ltsp/getltscfg-cluster.conf :)
23:43
<johnny>
alkisg, i think it is good..
23:43
it has inline help
23:43
<alkisg>
Because apache .conf files can be a pain... ok, nice!
23:43
<johnny>
if you find it isn't clear.. the folks are good at clearing it up
23:44
english isn't their native language either
23:44
the most active contributors that is
23:44
<alkisg>
And php installation is easy?
23:45
<cyberorg>
stgraber, i would use a ltsp-cluster.conf file and read the variables from there, so the build client is non-interactive
23:46
<stgraber>
well, for Ubuntu I like interactive :) but you're free to do it non-interactive for opensuse
23:46
<johnny>
alkisg, sure.. but is is easy with apache as well.. it usually comes configured out of the box on any distro i've used
23:46
<alkisg>
Php is easy with apache, but configuring virtual directories isn't :)
23:46
<cyberorg>
stgraber, cool :)
23:47
<johnny>
alkisg, well.. you won't know til you try
23:47
<alkisg>
johnny: I will! :)
23:47
<johnny>
i think cherokee is easy.. but i've also been messing with web servers for 8 or so years
23:47
<alkisg>
I've been using apache for a long time, but I'm thinking about what I should advice the other teachers here
23:48
<johnny>
well.. for public sites.. they should just get a cpanel account..
23:48
or plesk.. or whatever is hot in that business
23:48
and just use shared hosting
23:48
<alkisg>
No, just inside the lab, for some simple cms for the students to work with
23:48
<cyberorg>
stgraber, will keep you posted how it goes :)
23:49
<johnny>
alkisg.. thing about cherokee admin tho.. is that you should run it tunneled over ssh
23:49
if you run it on the same server it is active on..
23:49
atlho technically you can run cherokee-admin on any computer.. and just upload it..
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23:49
<johnny>
upload the generated config*
23:49
<zer0c00l>
hi room, i am using pxegrub to load the grub through network, but by default its not showing me the menu, instead it shows the prompt i have to type configfile command to make it show the menu.lst...how can i automate this or how can i make the pxegrub to show the menu.lst by default (without having to use the command)
23:49
<alkisg>
johnny: so it refuses to run if you run it locally? !
23:50
<johnny>
well if you're running the server on the same computer as your web browser.. no big deal
23:50
but if you want to edit the web server config from somewhere else, it is recommended that you tunnel it
23:50
<alkisg>
Ah, just for security reasons.. No concern there! :)
23:51
<johnny>
yes
23:51
you should make sure you use a post .97 release
23:51
whatever is newest
23:51
<alkisg>
johnny: thanks, I'll try it!
23:51
<johnny>
the webadmin looks alot better on 1024x screens now
23:51
<alkisg>
zer0c00l: pxegrub? is that a seperate application or just the pxe / grub combo?
23:52
<johnny>
also.. they added a File Exists rule that can match any file..
23:52
<zer0c00l>
compiled the grub with --enable-pxe option
23:52
<johnny>
so it will behave like the mod rewrite rules -f and -d
23:52
which are very common in dynamic applications
23:52
<zer0c00l>
so that we can load grub through network
23:52
<johnny>
that's not exactly ltsp related
23:53
<zer0c00l>
but i use it to boot ltsp server johhny
23:53
<alkisg>
zer0c00l: I think that wasn't really well supported, aren't pxelinux / gpxelinux good enough for you?
23:53
(network support in grub, I mean)
23:53
<zer0c00l>
alkisg: i have patched the existing grub
23:53
<johnny>
zer0c00l, why?
23:53
<zer0c00l>
to make it more supported
23:53
<johnny>
why doesn't just plain pxe work for you?
23:54
<zer0c00l>
its my project in school
23:54
<johnny>
then you get to pick up the pieces :)
23:54
altho i wish i had had a project in school to mess with linux related anything :)
23:55
<zer0c00l>
oh
23:55
let me try then
23:55
:)
23:56
<cyberorg>
stgraber, what is INVENTORY?
23:56
<alkisg>
zer0c00l: so what would pxegrub be able to do that pxelinux can't do right now out of the box?
23:56
<johnny>
cyberorg, an inventory is.. (defintion from dictionary)
23:56
lol
23:58
<cyberorg>
shrek, discussion stgraber and i were having just before you came in http://paste.ubuntu.com/115870/
23:59
johnny, haha :P