IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 11 February 2016   (all times are UTC)

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06:23alkisg_away is now known as alkisg
06:29
<alkisg>
Woot woot ltsp updated to 5.5.6 in xenial :)
06:30
<maldridge>
huzzah!
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13:01
<markit>
hi Phantomas, I've completed the 5 missing italian translation strings for latest epoptes. PLEASE could you drop me a email some days before a new version is released, next time? :)
13:01
or is there a way to tell launchpad to notify automagically?
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15:00
<alkisg>
vagrantc: heya :) Have you ever thought of some way for thin clients to authenticate against the LTSP server, but then use the CPU/RAM of some beefy fat client that happens to be in that same computer lab, to take some load off of the ltsp server?
15:01
I was thinking that would be simple enough with ltsp 6, just NFS_HOME and LDM_SERVER=fat1...
15:01
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i've thought about LTSP servers that were themselves LTSP clients...
15:02
<alkisg>
Unfortunately that lacks the authentication bit for thin clients...
15:02
<vagrantc>
you could configure libpam-sshauth to be an authentication method for sshd :)
15:02
<alkisg>
Thins clients wouldn't be able to use those ltsp replicated servers for authentication, as they don't have the user accounts there (without pam sshaut)
15:02
<vagrantc>
host key management is a little messed up, too
15:03
<alkisg>
Right.... it's packaged for debian/ubuntu, isn't it?
15:03* vagrantc nudged sbalneav to make a new upstream release
15:03
<vagrantc>
it's been a bit stalled in debian
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15:04
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: I'll get to it today
15:04
<alkisg>
Hmmm I'll make a proof of concept by just downloading passwd, group, shadow etc from the server, ignoring security, and if it works fine, I'll look into integrating sshauth
15:04
sbalneav: thanks :)
15:04
<sbalneav>
Morning alkisg
15:04
<vagrantc>
alkisg: definitely easy by ignoring security
15:04
<alkisg>
What's the weather like, there? Here we haven't seen any snow this year, no skiing... :-/
15:05
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you could just use the pam module that allows anyone to login
15:05
<alkisg>
vagrantc: the group membership would be all messed up then
15:05
<vagrantc>
ah, sure
15:05
<alkisg>
We need e.g. user01 to belong to class1
15:05
<sbalneav>
-18C here at the moment. Bit chilly
15:06
<vagrantc>
1.8*-1.8+32 ...
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15:07
<vagrantc>
er, 1.8*-18+32 ... my poor impoverished measurements make sense now
15:07
<alkisg>
Whoops, +10 here, /me is jealous... :)
15:07
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: what is this, like the dead of winter?
15:08
<sbalneav>
We're heading towards the spring. The end is here.
15:09
<vagrantc>
spring is again like 2-3 months early here this year
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16:22
<bennabiy>
alkisg_away: how stable is LTSP in 16.04 so far? you said you are running it?
16:23
<vagrantc>
it only recent got updates sufficient to work
16:23
within the last day or three
16:23
<bennabiy>
work in a complete way, or work enough to not pull your hair out and still not have a box?
16:24* vagrantc shrugs
16:25
<bennabiy>
thank you
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16:37
<alkisg_away>
bennabiy: ltsp in 16.04 is fine, and it's been fine for a while if you used the greek schools ppa
16:37
Now it works without it as well
16:37
<bennabiy>
Is it possible to get a copy of the ISO to test it?
16:38
<alkisg_away>
What iso?
16:38
<bennabiy>
16.04
16:38
<alkisg_away>
Installation is as usual, you download the ubuntu iso and install it and then install ltsp on top of it
16:39
<bennabiy>
yes, but 16.04 is not released yet, afaik
16:39
<alkisg_away>
There are daily isos
16:40
<bennabiy>
yes, but I cannot see where to download them
16:42
<alkisg_away>
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
16:43
<bennabiy>
alkisg_away: thank you
16:45
<alkisg_away>
np :)
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18:12
<bennabiy>
do you know if ubuntu will ever include zfs support on install?
18:13
<vagrantc>
there are some licensing challenges outstanding, i think
18:25
<alkisg_away>
https://github.com/zfsonlinux/pkg-zfs/wiki/HOWTO-install-Ubuntu-to-a-Native-ZFS-Root-Filesystem
18:25alkisg_away is now known as alkisg
18:25
<alkisg>
Computers that have less than 2GB of memory run ZFS slowly. 4GB of memory is recommended for normal performance in basic workloads. 16GB of memory is the recommended minimum for deduplication.
18:25
Haha
18:25
So I'm guessing it's not suitable for 128 mb clients, right? :D
18:32
Btw, today I created a USB stick with Ubuntu/LTSP installed in it, and I set/opt/ltsp/images/i386.img as a symlink to /dev/sdb2, to the stick partition itself.
18:32
That way the stick can be used as an ltsp-pnp server, without an image, to minimize space + writes + used ram for caching
18:34
The good thing is that that setup didn't require many changes; (1) run nbd-server with group=disk, (2) add "noload" to the kernel cmdline to ignore the ext4 journal, and (3) manually copy the kernels as ltsp-update-kernels currently fails with symlinks
18:37
<vagrantc>
nice
18:42
<bennabiy>
alkisg: yes, dedup was a fail, but zfs compression is pretty amazing. I was more thinking for the server, not for clients
18:42
<alkisg>
bennabiy: why not btrfs compression?
18:42
It works fine on 128 mb ram clients...
18:42
(and of course, on the server...)
18:42
<bennabiy>
I like the zfs features a bit better, but I am not opposed
18:43
they are similar, but a few things zfs does better
18:43
also zfs is a little more mature
18:43
<alkisg>
Like ram usage? :P :D
18:43
I heard that, but not on linux, right?
18:43
<bennabiy>
alkisg: it is almost fully featured on linux
18:43
<alkisg>
btrfs is mainlined, that should help with its adoption in distros...
18:43
(upstream in the kernel)
18:44
Why does it need a whole 2 GB for normal use?
18:44
<bennabiy>
because by default it devotes half of the memory available to the ARC
18:45
<vagrantc>
it basically uses a very large in-memory cache
18:45
more complicated than that, of course, but that's a rough idea
18:45
<bennabiy>
https://pthree.org/2012/12/07/zfs-administration-part-iv-the-adjustable-replacement-cache/
18:45
yes
18:45
it does a mix of LRU LFU cache
18:45
dynamic depending on the usage
18:46
you can tweak the cache setting though, so that it is not so memory intensive
18:47
the realtime benefit of zfs send (or btrfs send for that matter) is quite something when dealing with large amounts of data and the lz4 compression does wonders for speed
18:49
<alkisg>
Isn't disk caching supposed to use all the "free" RAM automatically, and discard some bits on malloc() requests with whatever algorithm it wants?
18:51
<vagrantc>
zfs is different.
18:51
<bennabiy>
yes
18:52
I also like how zfs lets me see what is using up space on a per pool and per volume level, vs btrfs only showing on the pool
18:52
hard to tell how much is actually used in btrfs
18:52
I used btrfs for about 1 month a couple years ago
18:52
I am sure it has increased a bit from then
18:53
<alkisg>
What kind of setup are you using zfs with?
18:53
<bennabiy>
debian
18:53
<alkisg>
No I mean, how come you need all those advanced things like zfs send etc?
18:53
<vagrantc>
zfs makes use of the heisenberg uncertainty principle
18:54
<bennabiy>
I use it for backing up of VM's and webservers primarily
18:54
with the ability to restore to a snapshot instantly, as well as incremental send
18:54
<alkisg>
And zfs send serves for incremental backups? Like, remote storing of snapshots?
18:54
<bennabiy>
yes
18:54
without needing to calculate the diffs before sending
18:54
<vagrantc>
zfs is like a filesystem and raid and backups all mushed together
18:55
<bennabiy>
it already knows what changed when it goes to send
18:55
And if I move an 8GB file or so to a new folder, it does not need to resend the 8GB file like rsync does, but just moves the pointer
18:56
I just like it
18:56
<alkisg>
But in the end you have to "replay" all the incremental backups to get what you need to restore, right?
18:56
<bennabiy>
I am not saying I am an expert on it or anything...
18:56
nope
18:56
only if I do not know where the item I am looking for it
18:57
btrfs does have this, that it can restore files on an individual basis, zfs I would need to copy the files out, if I didn't want to rollback
18:57
<alkisg>
The remote backup, is it something like a clone of your primary zfs disk, or something like an ext4 file system with zfs.backup.1, zfs.backup.2 files in it?
18:58
<vagrantc>
oh, also lvm
18:58
<bennabiy>
alkisg: are you asking in general, or in my setup?
18:59
<alkisg>
bennabiy: ...I was asking about your setup, but we can talk in general, sure, it's the theory that interest me, on how it can be used more convienently...
18:59
If the result of `zfs send` is stored as files, I imagine it has to be played back to make sense
19:00
While if it's applied to an identical zfs filesystem, then ok it's a clone
19:01
<bennabiy>
like vagrantc said, it is like lvm supporting snapshots and cloning etc, as a COW filesystem. Here is a typical situation...
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19:04
<bennabiy>
Server A has pool/LiveData and pool/Backup (pool being the vdev, LiveData and Backup being filesystems) and I snapshot the LiveData@today. I can zfs send pool/LiveData@today to pool/Backup@today which would copy the data in pool/LiveData as of the snapshot to the backup with a snapshot of the same name (or I could rename it, or send to a different server etc)
19:04
I can then reference that data at that time and mount it wherever I want
19:05
I can also instantly rollback to a snapshot (deleting any snapshots which occured between the current time and that snapshot) or I can clone out a snapshot and then make it an individual filesystem
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19:07
<bennabiy>
This might help more than me trying to type it out... http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/12/rsync-net-zfs-replication-to-the-cloud-is-finally-here-and-its-fast/
19:07
as an example
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19:36
<alkisg>
Thank you bennabiy, I'll read that later on
19:36* alkisg waves for now...
19:36alkisg is now known as alkisg_away
19:36* bennabiy waves
19:37
<bennabiy>
alkisg_away: no problem :)
19:37
<alkisg_away>
:)
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21:04
<bennabiy>
what version ltsp / ldm do I need to support 16.04?
21:04
alkisg_away: ^
21:05
(and I do not want the answer... use the greek schools ppa... )
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21:06
<||cw>
IIRC 16.04 should include a working ltsp
21:06
<vagrantc>
bennabiy: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=ltsp
21:07
looks like 5.5.6 is available, which is good.
21:08
<bennabiy>
I do not mean what does 16.04 ship with, but alkisg said that it was only in the last upload or two that got it working
21:08
or is he putting his uploads directly upstream?
21:09
<vagrantc>
5.5.6 contains all the changes that were in the ppa, i believe
21:11
<bennabiy>
great.
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