IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 2 January 2010   (all times are UTC)

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11:56
<Ahmuck>
with ltsp, is there a way to provide universal storage based on permissions? ie, is there a way to grant folder permissions to group "yearbook" and others to group "c++ programming" ?
11:57
<alkisg>
You mean something different from chown directory :group?
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12:02
<Ahmuck>
so, a user "publishing" is created and a directory under that which is "articles"
12:02
however, if one user creates an article in that directory, others can read it, however they are unable to edit it
12:02
even though all users are in the group "publishing"
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12:04
<alkisg>
Ahmuck: read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setuid#setgid_on_directories
12:09
<Ahmuck>
alkisg: thx, i'll peek at it and see if that fixes my problem
12:09
any suggestion on creating a group of group directories? seperate partition?
12:09
<alkisg>
Ahmuck: basically, you need `chmod g+s directory`
12:09
<Ahmuck>
currently "home" is seperate partition, however, this really should be out of home
12:10
<alkisg>
What do you mean "a group of group directories"? Why not use /home/somedir for that?
12:10
<Ahmuck>
for example, you'd have a group, "gradeschool", and a group middleschool, etc.
12:10
ie, local installations have a confusing install to /opt or /usr/local
12:11
is there a standard way of setting group directories on linux?
12:11
or just put them where ever one sees fit?
12:11
/home is really for "user" accounts isn't it
12:12* alkisg doesn't have enough experience to justify any choice here... I'd just put them to /home/groupdirs, myself.
12:12
<johnny>
why?
12:12
you can set different umasks
12:13
but also like alkisg said
12:13
i'd say wherever you want for shared dirs.. /home is sometimes the bet choice, but maybe you want a seperate dir off of /
12:14
since you shouldn't have to be writing files to /opt or /usr
12:15
<Ahmuck>
opt is for software iirc
12:16
what is the difference between opt and /usr/local ... it's been a while since i've looked at the lsb
12:16
er, not lsb
12:16
<alkisg>
fhs
12:16
<johnny>
gentoo puts binaries in /opt
12:17
binary only installs, like games, sun java, flashplayer, and the like
12:17
mostly non open sutff
12:18
<Ahmuck>
lhfs ...
12:18
<johnny>
my distro manages stuff in /opt
12:18
if i do src checkouts of upstream projects i use /usr/local
12:19
here's my linode
12:19
franklin ~ # ls /usr/local/src/
12:19
aerial ejabberd exmpp gloox-1.0 omnipresence prosody-modules sleekbot spectrum
12:19
bip-0.7.5.tar.gz ejabberd-modules gloox linode prosody punjab sleekxmpp tig
12:20
anything no distro managed goes to /usr/local
12:20
not*
12:20
<Ahmuck>
ah, ok
12:20
it would seem though that any software would be chuncked into the same directory
12:21
outside of the base system
12:21
software packages, ie, firefox, etc.
12:21
<johnny>
huh?
12:21
well.. that's why most distros just install software to /usr
12:21
lemme see what i got in /opt on fedora
12:22
only ltsp
12:22
<Ahmuck>
alkisg: ur right it's fhs
12:22* Ahmuck is looking at it again ...
12:27
<Ahmuck>
Programs to be invoked by users must be located in the directory /opt/<package>/bin
12:28
it looks like there is a /srv directory for "services", local data
12:29
<alkisg>
Unfortunately not all of what's proposed by fhs actually applies to all distros...
12:29
<johnny>
except nobody uses /srv
12:29
or few use /srv anyway..
12:29
most people still use /var for that
12:30
<Ahmuck>
that doesn't make sense ... /usr/bin - most user invocked commands
12:31
how does one have a package in /opt and also in /usr/bin, the binary is moved to /usr/bin but the program resides in /opt?
12:32
<johnny>
huh?
12:32
i have /opt/bin on gentoo
12:32
iirc
12:33
<Ahmuck>
k, got it figured out. after looking there is no real good place to put group stuff. so i'm going to create a directory "/group" off of /
12:33
<johnny>
that's what i suggested :)
12:33
<Ahmuck>
and then specific groups from there
12:33
same as /user
12:33
where /user is specific to the user, /group is specific to the group
12:33
<johnny>
why would you need /usr
12:33
err /user
12:33
<Ahmuck>
er, sorry, /home
12:34
<johnny>
GoboLinux eschews the whole lfs thing.. and goes for a more mac like approach
12:34
<Ahmuck>
hrm, i'll may have to rethink this again
12:34
<johnny>
/Users, /Applications .. that kinda thing
12:34
/me hates dirs that start with uppercase tho :(
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12:35
<johnny>
altho maybe i just need completion that is case insensitive
12:37
<Ahmuck>
interesting
12:37
i like compartments
12:38
i'll have to peek at my home directory. iirc, it's only users
12:38
i'd hate to "clutter" it up
12:38
but i suppose i could hang a /group from there
12:41
thanks for the ear
12:43
<johnny>
Ahmuck, well it's not like you can't change it later..
12:43
it's just easier to say.. backup /home and get everything :)
12:43
but as long as you remember /groups .. i'm sure you'll be fine
12:44
<Ahmuck>
thanks for pointing out gobo ... i really like the file system layout and after reading it, i don't think one would have to worry about compatibility
12:44
think one could run ltsp on it?
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12:53
<johnny>
Ahmuck, no..
12:53
somebody would have to port it
12:53
i mean .. sure.. after the port
12:53
but.. i doubt you'll find the same package quality
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13:41* alkisg is looking into docbook and really wonders if it's still in use! http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=doc-book-users ==> 3 whole messages in 2009!!!
13:48
<johnny>
alkisg, do you know if that's the b st place to look?
13:48
<alkisg>
I'm sure it *isn't* :)
13:48
But I can't find any new info, I'm only seeing tutorials etc from 2004...
13:49
...that makes me wonder why it's so widespread in Gnome docs, KDE etc
13:49
<johnny>
because everybody still uses it?
13:49
<alkisg>
Right, but why?
13:49
<johnny>
because it's the best?
13:50
<alkisg>
OK, then why noone uses docbook based wikies?
13:50
<johnny>
because it's too hard to write
13:50
also
13:50
wikis aren't books
13:50
you can transform wiki to docbook with some wikis i guess
13:50
wikis are meant for easy collaboration..
13:51
and nobody came up with a web wysiwyg for docbook i imagine
13:51
<alkisg>
Sure. And software development needs that, and also technical docs development needs that
13:51
Anyway. How are people usually using docbook?
13:51
I.e. to write gnome documentation, they just use gedit?
13:52
<johnny>
i don't know.. go ask em
13:52
<alkisg>
And, how do they publish it to PDFs or to web sites?
13:52
<johnny>
#gnome-hackers on gnome.org
13:52
err irc.gnome.org or irc.gimp.net
13:52* alkisg thinks only sbalneav still uses docbook :P :D
13:52
<johnny>
pdfs.. doubtful..
13:53
<alkisg>
That's how the ltsp manual is done
13:53
Docbook => pdf
13:53
<johnny>
i hate pdfs
13:53
then again.. i don't really print documentation
13:53
i read it online
13:53
<alkisg>
Why? It's the best form for printed docs.
13:53
Sure, for online docs it isn't suitable.
13:53
<johnny>
html with a a proper print stylesheet is fine for 95% of users
13:54
it's rare that you actually need pdfs
13:54
that's a madeup number..
13:54
<alkisg>
When you want to learn something new, you usually want a pdf, to sit on the couch and read for hours
13:54
<johnny>
html with proper print stylehseet is good enough in most cases
13:54
not sure why you would need a pdf then
13:54
<alkisg>
When you're looking for specific answers, google/html/online docs are your friends...
13:55
<johnny>
i don't waste that much paper..
13:55
<alkisg>
Because html isn't good with page layout
13:55
<johnny>
it'scalled a print stylesheet..
13:55
so.. yes.. it canbe
13:55
<alkisg>
Nope
13:55
It can't
13:55
<knipwim>
happy newyear guys
13:55
<johnny>
sure it can..
13:55
<alkisg>
Nope :P :D
13:55
<johnny>
maybe you've seenbad stylesheets
13:55
<alkisg>
happy new year knipwim
13:55
johnny: well I've read the html specs
13:55
<johnny>
perhaps there is also limitations in supporting ie6.. just like everywhere else..
13:56
you're reading the wrong specs then
13:56
css..
13:56
<alkisg>
(css 1, 2, 3 etc)
13:56
<johnny>
sure.. the 2 had some things that are good enough for docs i've printed
13:56
like where to break
13:56
<alkisg>
They don't have enough for page layout, and they are not supported by ANY browser atm
13:56
<johnny>
i am rearely concerned as i don't kill that many trees as you i guess
13:56
so my needs must be way more limited
13:57
<alkisg>
No I also don't kill trees (or euros) :)
13:57
<johnny>
for what is there to be good enough
13:57
huh?
13:57
you're printing pdfs?
13:57
<alkisg>
I'm mostly reading things online, I don't print them
13:57
<johnny>
that's what it sounded like
13:58
<knipwim>
i sometimes print pdf's
13:58
<johnny>
hmm.. pdfs take too long to open
13:58
<knipwim>
reference cards and specs
13:58
<johnny>
if you're not gonna print em
13:58
<alkisg>
But that's just my personal preferences. I do know that most of the teachers wanted the PDF version of the manual I sent them than the online version
13:58
<johnny>
also slows down the pc
13:58
web pages render much quicker than pdf
13:58
<alkisg>
So it's not a personal matter. PDFs are needed...
13:59
That's not always true. Try to render a 50.000 line html page with tables etc...
13:59
<johnny>
i hate docs only in pdf
13:59
seems fine for me.. i guess
13:59
<alkisg>
For large documents, html is way slower than pdf
13:59
<johnny>
as long as they aren't overloaded with unnecessary graphics (ie invisible pixels and the like)
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14:00
<johnny>
of course.. most docs that large allow you to page through
14:00
<knipwim>
but the discussion was about docbook being a good source document format for either pdf or html? right?
14:00
<johnny>
i just use the right and left arrow keys
14:00
sure
14:00
knipwim, about whether people use docbook actually
14:00
and why
14:00
<alkisg>
and how :(
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14:01
<johnny>
alkisg, ask people who aren't here :)
14:01
and some other place than that forum
14:01
i opened up a docbook file. seemed easy enough
14:01
as long as i had the spec i guess
14:01
must be some editor for ya
14:02
<alkisg>
There are lots of editors... but any docbook-related page I saw seemed dead for at least 4-5 years...
14:02
Either that, or they reached perfection :D
14:03
...and don't change it or talk about it anymore :D
14:03
<knipwim>
http://docs.oasis-open.org/docbook/specs/docbook-5.0-spec.html
14:03
from november 2009
14:04
<alkisg>
I've seen that some weeks ago when I was looking again - but I don't think it's used yet
14:05
It's supposed to remove a lot of redudant tags etc, but it still doesn't tell me if I should use docbook :-/
14:07
<knipwim>
it seems like a good choice
14:07
you can convert it to various other formats
14:07
<alkisg>
I read that, but I only found some ancient and abandonder converters...
14:07
<moldy>
i like pdfs, most web pages suck.
14:07
<knipwim>
and it can also be interpreted 5 years from now
14:08
<moldy>
for relatively simple stuff, consider using RST as source format
14:08
<alkisg>
While e.g. if I write in openoffice I can also export to everything (including docbook), and it's maintained...
14:08
<knipwim>
depending on your needs, you can write the xslt yourself
14:11
<alkisg>
moldy: I've heard of RST a while back, did you use it for any of your projects?
14:12
<moldy>
alkisg: i use it for various personal stuff
14:12
i also use it in tcm, but only a little
14:12
it's definitely good for "lightweight" documents
14:13
<alkisg>
The problem with all these methods is that none is good for collaboration. No wiki uses those syntaxes...
14:14
<moldy>
plone can do rst
14:14
<alkisg>
And wiki => docbook or pdf converters also suck...
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14:15
<moldy>
true, there is no silver bullett, as far as i know
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14:17
<moldy>
-t
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15:07
<petre>
hello friends
15:09
I've got a problem that's not ltsp, but somewhat similar in nature that I thought some folks around here might have some suggestions for.
15:10
<Appiah>
O_O
15:10
<petre>
I'm netbooting a centos kernel and initrd, and then mounting an image file to be root.
15:11
But when I turn control over to init, via switch_root, it reboots the system.
15:11
I can't figure out why.
15:12
Using switch_root, I'm passing /bin/bash as the init right now, and that works okay.
15:12
But if I put /sbin/init in place of bash or 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots.
15:13
Any suggestions as to how to figure out what is triggering the reboot?
15:13
The kernel and initrd are loaded via gpxe, which is working as it should.
15:14
The goal is to ultimately load the root file system, contained in a single image file, from an http server.
15:14
which gpxe can do.
15:14
(Yes, I've asked about this on #etherboot)
15:14
<Appiah>
is it instantly rebooting or is it being rebooted like if someone ran "reboot" ?
15:15
<petre>
I'd say it's between 2-5 seconds from when I issue the command to where it reboots.
15:16
I just tried it again: about 5 seconds.
15:17
<alkisg>
Some ideas: If you put an `echo` in the top of init, does it work? Or, if you put `break=top` and `debug` as kernel parameters? And, what happens if you put `init=/bin/bash` and then run init from inside bash?
15:17
<petre>
it's as if I've hit the Reset button on the front of the computer; there's nothing going to the console indicating a reboot is coming
15:18
<Appiah>
hmm
15:18
<petre>
The init script within the initrd is working fine. It's just the last line that's trouble. ;-)
15:18
<Appiah>
see anything in dmesg / syslog?
15:19
<petre>
the last thing in dmesg is the output from the root image file being mounted successfully.
15:20
I've never tried debug as a kernel parameter; does that send more output to the console?
15:20
<alkisg>
How is it mounted?
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15:21
<petre>
on a loopback device via losetup and then via switch_root, which is a busybox command
15:22
<alkisg>
But isn't the root on an http server? (I probably missed something...)
15:23
<petre>
syslog is pretty much worthless because it's only got info from when the root file system was dumped into a static image file
15:23
It's going to be, but my plan is to rsync it to a local copy and then mount that.
15:24
That way it will boot faster if there have been no changes to it.
15:24
<alkisg>
So now you're using a local copy?
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15:24
<petre>
Correct.
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15:24
<alkisg>
And if you put `break=init` you can see its contents?
15:24
<petre>
Only the kernel and initrd come from the web server.
15:25
Put 'break=init' in the init script in initrd?
15:25
<alkisg>
No, as a kernel parameter...
15:25
<petre>
I can try it. What does it do?
15:25
<alkisg>
(/me is using Ubuntu, I don't know if that exist in centos...)
15:26
In Ubuntu, if you put that, init runs a shell after the root is mounted
15:26
So there you can inspect things...
15:27
<petre>
well, I've already got a shell via switch_root
15:27
<alkisg>
So you can see that root is mounted correctly?
15:27
<petre>
yes
15:27
switch_root takes two params, the partition to make /, and then, typically, /sbin/init.
15:28
In my case, that causes a reboot. But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init
15:28
and then I 'land' at a prompt.
15:28
But if I then call init via exec, e.g. 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots
15:32
<alkisg>
Would strace work at this point?
15:32
<petre>
I'll try anything. How does strace work?
15:32
Adding 'debug' as a kernel parameter didn't do anything, btw
15:33
didn't give me any more feedback
15:34* petre goes to look for an strace man page
15:34
<alkisg>
E.g. `exec strace /sbin/init`...
15:34
But maybe it's too early for strace to work, I don't know...
15:35
<petre>
yeah, it would need to be contained in busybox, which it doesn't appear to be
15:35
busybox is all I've got to work with at this stage in the boot process.
15:35
<alkisg>
No I meant after "But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init"
15:36
I.e. after switch_root is called...
15:36
<petre>
?
15:36
<alkisg>
(11:28:25 μμ) petre: In my case, that causes a reboot. But I can pub /bin/bash in place of /sbin/init
15:36
(11:28:33 μμ) petre: and then I 'land' at a prompt.
15:36
(11:28:55 μμ) petre: But if I then call init via exec, e.g. 'exec /sbin/init', it reboots
15:37
At that point, I meant instead of running 'exec /sbin/init', to run strace...
15:37
<petre>
Oh wait, I think I see what you're saying.
15:37
Since / is already mounted, I could have strace in there, doesn't have to come from busybox
15:38
<alkisg>
Right, I just don't know if it'll work
15:38
(unfortunately at weekends most of the gurus are away :D)
15:38
<petre>
it's worth a shot
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15:47
<petre>
well, at least I get a kernel panic now with strace, so that may be progress. :-)
15:50
now I'm getting 'timeout opening/writing control channel /dev/initctl', which I was getting earlier when I tried to call init without using exec.
15:51
I thought it was because init needs to be pid 1, but since the shell is already pid 1, it was complaining, until I started using exec.
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22:23
<sbalneav>
Evening all
22:24* vagrantc waves
22:24
<sbalneav>
Hey hey, just us grumpy guys here :)
22:25* vagrantc grumps
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23:24* stgraber waves after an hour of DB/PHP work ;)
23:24
<stgraber>
that ORM we're using for the new ltsp-cluster backend is awesome but takes some getting used to (was my first try with indexes + relations + constraints)
23:25
took a while but I finally managed to have PHP objects nicely mapped to the DB and can now add new servers to the cluster pool, add/remove them from groups, ... without a line of SQL ;)
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23:26
<stgraber>
just need to actually write the functions using that now and write the AJAXy part of it + XML-RPC functions
23:26
so application servers will automatically register and update their status every 30s, then the web UI will allow to check the status of the pool, create groups and drag/drop server in these groups
23:27
then you simply ask for a server from the group you want and you get the less loaded one (or something else depending on the algorithm) and you put that as LDM_SERVER or RDP_SERVER
23:27
basically what we already had but a lot more flexible and shiny ;)
23:27
<sbalneav>
Hey stgraber
23:27
Cool
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