IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 27 October 2015   (all times are UTC)

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01:52
<fnurl>
oh the tootai left, I could have actually helped with that
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10:44
<tootai>
Does someone use Berryterminal on Pi2 to connect to Ubuntu server 14.04.03 LTSP server ?
10:45
On my side, the ssh connection is close with th emessage "no response from server". Using the same credentials from a notebook in ssh works OK
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11:20
<work_alkisg>
tootai: better use upstream ltsp, not berryterminal
11:21
!raspberrypi
11:21
<ltsp`>
raspberrypi: (#1) LTSP with raspberry pi: http://cascadia.debian.net/trenza/Documentation/raspberrypi-ltsp-howto/, or (#2) To use a similar environment to LTSP on the raspberry pi http://berryterminal.com/, or (#3) https://github.com/gbaman/RaspberryPi-LTSP, or (#4) https://pi-ltsp.net
11:21
<work_alkisg>
I.e. the first one, with either debian, raspbian or ubuntu
11:21
Ubuntu 15.10 with the greek schools ppa and the raspi2 kernel should support pis fine
11:23* markit takes note about news on rasperry side and ltsp
11:24
<markit>
work_alkisg: I read "RaspberryPi-LTSP has been replaced with PiNet"
11:24
http://pinet.org.uk/
12:07
<work_alkisg>
markit: pinet is a collection of scripts that helps teachers run ltsp-build-client etc
12:07
The main work is still in ltsp
12:08
I imagine when we'll internationalize sch-scripts, teachers will be able to use those instead of pinet...
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12:13
<tootai>
work_alkisg, my ubuntu server is already running the greek schools ppa
12:13
work_alkisg, what do you mean by using the upstream ltsp ?
12:15
<markit>
work_alkisg: I just mean that the #4 link of robot reply is outdated
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12:31
<work_alkisg>
tootai: I mean that you don't need berryterminal or pinet, you can just run ltsp-build-client --arch armhf etc as the ltsp how-to's say
12:31* work_alkisg waves, later...
12:31
<tootai>
work_alkisg, I tried #1, failed to build. I contact the developper who asked me to use #4 which is today pinet.co.uk
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13:37
<alkisg>
tootai: which OS are you using for the server? distro/version?
13:37
also, why were you asking about berryterminal if you're trying pinet?
13:37* alkisg got a bit confused there..
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14:00
<tootai>
alkisg, ubuntu server 14.04.03
14:01
<alkisg>
As I said, it would only work with 15.10 :)
14:01
There's a raspi2 kernel in ubuntu in 15.10
14:01
<tootai>
alkisg, I try to find the solution which feet my needs
14:01
<alkisg>
Sure, and I'm just trying to help, you should select whatever suits you
14:02
<tootai>
II have a test server, also Ubuntu 14.04.03 but clients are Pi1B + Berryterminal for this hardware, this work fine :-(
14:02* alkisg is confused and doesn't get if tootai uses berryterminal or pinet
14:04
<tootai>
during the time, I ran ltsp-build-client --arch armhf boet now I don't no what to do: should I install the image on a SD card or boot the Pi2 in tftp mode, but I don't know how
14:05
alkisg: I have 6 Pi2 to setup and 2 test servers, one with pinet, the other without
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14:07
<tootai>
as berryterminal doesn't work with Pi2, I installed pinet to test if it could feet my needs, but no. It's not translated and teachers have to has to work with command line, which is not possible
14:08
<alkisg>
Err ok anyway, I'll write a tutorial on how to boot raspberry pi2 with ubuntu 15.10+the greek schools ppa, without pinet, in a couple of weeks.
14:08
<tootai>
so now I try to find a replacement to berryterminal without having to install raspbian on each Pi2 and the connect usting VNC/RDP/or whatever
14:08* alkisg needs to get back to work for now...
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14:10
<tootai>
alkisg, will be too late for me, I have to install next week :-( Thanks for your help
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16:00
<alkisg>
!client
16:00
<ltsp`>
I do not know about 'client', but I do know about these similar topics: 'fatclients', 'fatclient-printers', 'epoptes-fat-clients', 'nbd-client', 'client-list'
16:00
<alkisg>
!client-list
16:00
<ltsp`>
client-list: to get a list of all nbd-clients (which sometimes is the same as ltsp clients), run: netstat -tn | sed -n 's/.*:10809 *\([0-9.]*\):.*/\1/p' | sort -Vu
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16:32
<alkisg>
!learn dhcp-hosts as `to create a dhcp-hosts file for dnsmasq: i=1; for ip in $(netstat -tn | sed -n 's/.*:10809 *\([0-9.]*\):.*/\1/p' | sort -Vu); do arp -an $ip | grep -o -E '([[:xdigit:]]{1,2}:){5}[[:xdigit:]]{1,2}'; done | while read mac; do printf "%s,set:ltsp,,pc%02d\n" "$mac" "$i"; i=$(($i+1)); done`
16:32
<ltsp`>
The operation succeeded.
16:32
<alkisg>
!dhcp-hosts
16:32
<ltsp`>
'dhcp-hosts: to create a dhcp-hosts file for dnsmasq: i=1; for ip in $(netstat -tn | sed -n \'s/.*:10809 *\\([0-9.]*\\):.*/\x01/p\' | sort -Vu); do arp -an $ip | grep -o -E \'([[:xdigit:]]{1,2}:){5}[[:xdigit:]]{1,2}\'; done | while read mac; do printf "%s,set:ltsp,,pc%02d\n" "$mac" "$i"; i=$(($i+1)); done'
16:37
<alkisg>
!dhcp-hosts
16:37
<ltsp`>
dhcp-hosts: to create a dhcp-hosts file for dnsmasq: i=1; for ip in $(netstat -tn | sed -n 's/.*:10809 *\([0-9.]*\):.*/\1/p' | sort -Vu); do arp -an $ip | grep -o -E '([[:xdigit:]]{1,2}:){5}[[:xdigit:]]{1,2}'; done | while read mac; do printf "%s,set:ltsp,,pc%02d\n" "$mac" "$i"; i=$(($i+1)); done
17:09
<andyc>
alkisg are you there mate?
17:09
<alkisg>
Hi andyc!
17:09
<andyc>
hey
17:09
<alkisg>
Are you on site?
17:09
<andyc>
yes
17:09
<alkisg>
Need help? :)
17:10
<andyc>
yes.. need dns working then i can carry on.. i think due to dnsmasq (broke since then)
17:10
<3
17:10
<alkisg>
Do you have x11vnc installed? dpkg -l x11vnc
17:10
<andyc>
nope :/
17:10
<alkisg>
OK, then run this: sudo nano /etc/resolv.conf
17:11
Put nameserver 8.8.8.8 there
17:11
(replace the 127.... line)
17:11
That should fix your dns temporarily
17:11
Then do this:
17:11
!vnc-dide
17:11
<ltsp`>
vnc-dide: To share your screen with me, run this: sudo apt-get --yes install x11vnc; x11vnc -connect srv1-dide.ioa.sch.gr - this is a reverse connection, it doesn't need port forwarding etc.
17:12
<vagrantc>
alkisg: you sure go the extra mile!
17:13
<alkisg>
vagrantc: well, chat is fine for casual help, but for serious work, vnc is the way to go :)
17:14
<andyc>
the following apckages can't be authenticated..
17:14
shall i --force-yes
17:14
<alkisg>
Err ok, you probably have something wrong with your apt keys, but ok...
17:17
andyc: do you want dnsmasq to also function as a dns server for your ltsp clients?
17:17
It will speed up things, at a small security cost...
17:18
<andyc>
can do, no biggy :)
17:18
<alkisg>
Whatever you want, it's easy to fix it either way
17:18
<andyc>
without then please
17:19
<alkisg>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dnsmasq/+bug/1501189
17:20
<vagrantc>
security cost to using dnsmasq for DNS?
17:21
<alkisg>
Yup
17:21
<andyc>
thanks alkisg.. i'll continue setting everything up and send you an email :)
17:21
<alkisg>
andyc: do you want me to tell you about the menus?
17:22
<andyc>
yes please
17:22
<vagrantc>
alkisg: what are the security implications?
17:22
<alkisg>
vagrantc: give me a few minutes to find some link about it
17:22
andyc: so, you first need to decide how much of a kiosk it will be, vs how much of a full session
17:23
E.g. do you want a panel? Do you want multiple desktops?
17:23
A menu? Or just a method to switch between 2 apps?
17:23
lubuntu comes with 2 desktops
17:23
And it has a way to select desktop1 and desktop2, an icon in the panel
17:23
Or alt+ctrl+left/right or something
17:23
<andyc>
the basics are i will use just google chrome and a sip/softphone .. i will configure chrome policy settings to whitelist 2 websites. i'll uninstall all other brwosers
17:24
they can't have sudo and do anything except access those websits, but having their own perrsonal space would be advantages so they can write notes
17:24
also need liobre office...
17:25
libre*
17:25
<alkisg>
andyc: well, it sounds like you do need a session then, it's not only 2 programs, it's 3 now :)
17:25
<andyc>
yep sorry <3
17:25
<alkisg>
So maybe lubuntu with a custom menu?
17:25
<andyc>
yes sure
17:26
<alkisg>
mate or gnome-flashback can also have locked menus
17:26
Anything based on gsettings supports mandatory settings
17:26
<andyc>
ok, i'll look into it.. will they let me do it for a specific user, then i use that user as a base to create the other users?
17:27
<alkisg>
No, mandatory settings don't work like that
17:27
They're specified in text files, not as binary dconf templates
17:27
With lubuntu you could do it as a default menu, but I'm not sure if it will be mandatory or just "default", i.e. maybe users will be able to add more things later on
17:28
OK start with lubuntu as you already did, and we'll see how it goes...
17:28
<andyc>
ok mate thanks, will email <3
17:29
<alkisg>
vagrantc: a starting point: https://www.stgraber.org/2012/02/24/dns-in-ubuntu-12-04/ ==> "This dnsmasq server isn’t a caching server for security reason to avoid risks related to local cache poisoning and users eavesdropping on other’s DNS queries on a multi-user system."
17:29
<andyc>
for stage 5 of 28
17:29
<alkisg>
:)
17:29
<andyc>
joke :)
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18:02
<alkisg>
vagrantc: btw, dnsmasq has a dhcp-hostsfile directive, which provides the path to a file or dir with dhcp-host=mac,,,hostname,... directives. We could have epoptesd or ltspd read that file and extract the hostnames from there
18:02
Question, which dir should we use for that? E.g. /etc/dnsmasq.d/dhcp-hosts.d? Or /etc/epoptes/dhcp-hosts.d? Or /etc/ltsp/dhcp-hosts.d? Or symlinks?...
18:03
We're thinking to implement site-wide groups in epoptes that way, with files like "/etc/dnsmasq.d/dhcp-hosts.d/Our library lab", where the filename will be used as the epoptes group name
18:07
<vagrantc>
alkisg: not sure i like repurposing dnsmasq's configuration for something else entirely
18:07
even if it has been relatively stable over the years ...
18:07* alkisg likes it exactly for not having to specify the same things in 3 different configuration files
18:08
<vagrantc>
of course
18:08
<alkisg>
Why should we have to put the hostname in dnsmasq, in epoptes, in lts.conf and I don't know where else?
18:08* vagrantc has only rarely ever needed to put hosts in dhcp
18:08
<alkisg>
We could have an "ltsp-export-config" tool that would read lts.conf and generate dhcp-hosts... but I'm not sure that's better
18:08
Where do you specify the hostnames?
18:09
<vagrantc>
lts.conf
18:10
if anywhere at all
18:10
but i recogize my use cases don't always match other use-cases
18:11
but i always try to design installations that don't require the information to be in multiple places ... usually dynamic DHCP/dns works fine for that...
18:13
ideally, no configuration at all
18:14
<alkisg>
I think that the dhcp server does need to have the hostname information
18:14
In dnsmasq's case, that's also the dns server, extra benefit
18:14
<vagrantc>
for what?
18:14
<alkisg>
To be able to ping the clients
18:15
Or ssh to them
18:15
<vagrantc>
why does a dhcp server need to ping or ssh to clients?
18:15
<alkisg>
The dhcp server usually is the one that does dns updates
18:16
The sysadmin will need to ssh, and he'll get that info from dns
18:16
<muppis>
Dnsmasq provides dns with names generated from dhcp information.
18:16
<alkisg>
dnsmasq does 2 in 1, and that's convenient, yes
18:16
But also isc-dhcp + bind works fine
18:17
In isc-dhcp + bind, the info is usually in dhcp...
18:17
(when someone isn't using static IPs)
18:17
<muppis>
Dnsmasq provids tftpd as well.
18:17
<alkisg>
Sure, we're not comparing dnsmasq to other solutions, we're trying to see where the hostname information belongs
18:18
<vagrantc>
i just haven't seen a need to have hostname information in LTSP environments...
18:18
<muppis>
dns for sure.
18:18
<alkisg>
I think it belongs to the dhcp server, whether it also includes an embedded dns or not
18:19
muppis: with dynamic ips, people don't put that in dhcp, and configure it for dynamic dns updates?
18:19
<muppis>
It's little ying-yang actually. Dhcp is good to handle it, but right place to provide it is dns.
18:19
<alkisg>
Then you'd need static IPs
18:19
That's not viable for many installations
18:21
vagrantc: so you would have epoptes read lts.conf for groups? or ltspd read epoptes for dns?
18:21
Or have the same information many times?
18:21
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i still don't understand what problem you're trying to solve with all this
18:21
<alkisg>
We want the clients to have static names but not ips
18:21
<muppis>
alkisg, that's why dns should be able to update dynamically.
18:21
<alkisg>
The first client is pc01, the second pc02 etc
18:22
muppis: how do you tell dns that pc01 is 10.0.0.1 in the morning or 10.0.0.2 in the afternoon if you don't do that with dhcp?
18:22
<vagrantc>
alkisg: as long as you have static names, why not also assign static IPs?
18:23
<alkisg>
Because the IPs are assigned by a cheap router
18:23
The clients are dual booted as windows PCs etc
18:23
I don't want to touch the dhcp server == router, nor re-wire the classroom
18:23
It's the most widely used setup in schools
18:23
(and in houses)
18:23
<vagrantc>
ok, now we're getting to the meat of the matter :)
18:24
<muppis>
Bind is dynamically updatetable.
18:24
<alkisg>
muppis: link?
18:24
I know it is, with dhcp
18:24
I don't know how to do it without dhcp
18:24
vagrantc: So, one way to do that is with HOSTNAME=xx in lts.conf, we implemented that, but it's not enough
18:25
vagrantc: there are 2 other things we'd like. One, to be able to ping/ssh to the clients, because currently dns is not updated (we're using dnsmasq)
18:25
And the other thing is that epoptes also supports groups == different classrooms, where they all get the IPs from the same router
18:25
<vagrantc>
alkisg: and avahi .local addresses aren't good enough?
18:25
<alkisg>
Thin clients have avahi disabled
18:25
To save RAM
18:25
<vagrantc>
ok.
18:26
<alkisg>
So, the mac <=> hostname information needs to be in 3 places, lts.conf, dnsmasq, epoptes
18:27
The groups information can be in dnsmasq (to ignore other classrooms, so that they only boot from their own server), and in epoptes
18:27
And what I'm suggesting is, let's all use the dnsmasq file format so that we only have to declare that information once
18:27
If someone wants to also put HOSTNAMEs in lts.conf, we don't mind, but ltspd could read them from dnsmasq as well...
18:28
And epoptes could only read the dnsmasq configuration file
18:28
Isn't that sane?
18:30
(ltspd could also read the hostnames from dhcpd.conf, if we want to support it)
18:31
<vagrantc>
it does seem very strongly tied to a more-or-less arbitrary external format ... which, like i said at the beginning, i'm not sure of.
18:33
<alkisg>
Alternative ideas?
18:33
We're going to implement something...
18:35
<muppis>
alkisg, I haven't tested this, but there's one way to do it: http://linux.yyz.us/nsupdate/
18:36
<alkisg>
muppis: the user there says he's getting his IP with dhcp. How is he getting his hostname?
18:36
It has a static hostname in his hard disk, which he wants to send to DNS?
18:36
In LTSP, we don't have hard disks...
18:36
So we're getting our hostnames from dhcp
18:38
<muppis>
Can get hostname from dhcp or from lts.conf ?
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18:40
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i don't really have any vastly better ideas, other than specifying a format we control (e.g. lts.conf) and generating the other files for compatibility
18:41
alkisg: which does bring to mind another point ... whatever configuration file formats we expect an LTSP admin to edit should have some consistancy in format, ideally
18:42
though we've basically got at least two so far ... shell-style included configuration files, and ini-style lts.conf ...
18:42
<alkisg>
vagrantc: what I'm saying is, the hostname normally comes from dhcp. It was the same for LTSP clients until a few years ago we also started supporting the HOSTNAME directive to work around the proxydhcp issues
18:42
The dnsmasq/isc-dhcp files are not ltsp files
18:43
We don't specify their format
18:43
Ideally, ltsp clients would just get the hostname from ltsp, and do a dynamic dns update ==> no HOSTNAME ever needed
18:43
But with proxydhcp we can't do that easily
18:44
<ogra_>
did you check libnss-myhostname ?
18:44
<vagrantc>
alkisg: why can't we?
18:44
<ogra_>
that might help for parts of it
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18:44
<alkisg>
Because with ipappend 3 the client doesn't do a dhcp request
18:45
So dnsmasq never gets to tell the client its hostname
18:45
<vagrantc>
alkisg: that sounds like getting the hostname from DHCP, not from LTSP ... ?
18:45
<alkisg>
We never supported getting the hostname from ltsp, until I needed it for proxydhcp a few years ago... it was always from dhcp
18:46
That is its proper place
18:46
But with workarounds like ipappend 3, proxydhcp etc, the proper method breaks and we're starting hacks/workarounds...
18:46
<vagrantc>
i'm pretty sure we implemented hostnames long before anyone heard of proxydhcp stuff
18:47
<ogra_>
yeah
18:47
via lts.conf
18:47
<alkisg>
HOSTNAME=xx in lts.conf? I don't think so
18:47
<vagrantc>
but that's almost besides the point
18:47
<alkisg>
[hostname] in lts.conf, gotted from isc-dhcp, sure
18:47
*gotten
18:47* ogra_ is pretty sure we used to create /etc/hostname on boot from lts.conf if the MAC matched
18:48
<alkisg>
Hmm ok I might remember wrong then
18:48
<vagrantc>
there was an issue with hostname = (none) that we solved long ago
18:48
<ogra_>
no idea how it changed over the years :) but i know we did that in the early days
18:48
right
18:49
<alkisg>
I do know we created /etc/hostname from dhcp, but not from lts.conf. Anyway.
18:49
<ogra_>
could indeed be that this code doesnt exaist anymore :)
18:49
<alkisg>
(i.e. read from ipconfig's net-eth0.conf)
18:51
So... if someone puts the hostnames in dnsmasq, where's the harm in ltspd or epoptesd reading that information?
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18:55
<vagrantc>
when the format required changes and suddenly ltsp and epoptes versions break?
19:01
<alkisg>
vagrantc: if dnsmasq decides to update the format without caring about existing sysadmin files, then our parser could just bail out and ignore them
19:03
ltsp-config generates a dnsmasq.conf, if at some point that is considered invalid, we'll just have to send an update
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19:09
<vagrantc>
fair enough, i guess.
19:14
<alkisg>
vagrantc: would you prefer the opposite, i.e. everything in lts.conf, and an `ltsp-config export dnsmasq` tool that would export dnsmasq, or epoptes.conf, or dhcpd.conf, or pxelinux.cfg/01-mac-address (for cmdline)?
19:14
<vagrantc>
i guess it's the same problem in a different direction
19:15
then LTSP would possibly end up breaking dnsmasq, or epoptes, or isc-dhcp ...
19:15
<alkisg>
It would be initiated by the sysadmin though, we could say in the end "please verify that the generated file works..."
19:15
<vagrantc>
sure.
19:16
the addition of pxelinux.cfg/* generation is interesting...
19:16* vagrantc is also wondering if lts.conf format is soemthing we want to keep forever
19:17
<alkisg>
As long as it goes in /etc/ltsp/config.d/ as snippets, I don't have a problem with .ini file syntax... ah, and it should also support the multiline ini syntax
19:19
<vagrantc>
i think lts.conf currently supports multiple matching statements ... e.g. by ip address, mac address, or hostname ... all of which supporting * wildcard
19:19
although what order things get applied in is beyond me
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20:18
<alkisg>
@$)(#@* net connection :)
20:18
Yup the hostname, mac, ipv4/6 matching should be supported
20:19
<vagrantc>
ah yes, we don't yet support ipv6
20:22
<alkisg>
vagrantc: so, if ltspd or epoptesd supports reading dnsmasq's dhcp-hosts file, that would be under /etc/dnsmasq.d, not under /etc/ltsp, right?
20:22
Or would we ask for symlinks?
20:22* alkisg was thinking of /etc/dnsmasq.d/dhcp-hosts.d/<group name>
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20:38
<vagrantc>
alkisg: it really depends...
20:39
alkisg: not sure how dnsmasq is configured on all distros ...
20:39
alkisg: is it feasible to have a single client in multiple groups?
20:40* alkisg checks...
20:41
<Phantomas>
regarding the lts.conf → /etc/ltsp/config.d/ you should check https://code.launchpad.net/~ftsamis/ltsp/ltsp-conf , it supports multiline values and includes (old LIKE) too :)
20:41
<vagrantc>
i know dnsmasq supported multiple tags
20:41
yay
20:42
<Phantomas>
(and multiple files of course)
20:43
<alkisg>
dnsmasq didn't complain when I tried to set a hostname for the same mac address from multiple files
20:43
So yeah it's doable, although I can't think of any use case for that
20:47
(completely unrelated) about supporting dracut and even initramfs-less booting, we could check in init-ltsp.d, if we're not using a COW system, to create one and chain to it with pivot_root...
20:49
Phantomas: LDM_SESSION="gnome-fallback" ==> does that keep the commends in the value of the key?
20:49
*quotes, sorry
20:49
Is the value actually "gnome-flashback" with quotes? Or gnome-flashback?
20:50
<Phantomas>
it keeps the quotes, but it's changeable
20:51
We do or do not want them preserved?
20:54
<alkisg>
I think we'll want two modes... one for compatibility parsing of /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf, and one for the new ones in /etc/ltsp/*
20:54
<Phantomas>
or a migration script?
20:54
shouldn't be complicated to write at all
20:55
<alkisg>
We may end up calling it with a different name, e.g. flexiboot or configd or whatever
20:55
In that case, no automatic migration would be necessary
20:55
<Phantomas>
and no compatibility either...
20:55
<alkisg>
E.g. all the LDM* variables will no longer be available, they shouldn't be migrated
20:56
(ldm will be deprecated in ltsp6)
20:56
(if/when that ever is implemented :D)
20:56
<Phantomas>
so what use would a compatibility mode have?
20:57
<alkisg>
In the "different package name" way, it wouldn't have any use...
20:57
We'll see how all this works out
20:57
<Phantomas>
vagrantc: Did I mention the best part? It's python3 :P
20:58
<alkisg>
...and recursive :D
20:58
<vagrantc>
alkisg: i'd be interested to see pivot-root from init-ltsp.d ... but i've never seen that work
20:58
Phantomas: yay!
20:58
<alkisg>
vagrantc: in the worst case, we could force a cow over the /usr, /etc, ... dirs
20:59
That won't allow creating /new-dir or /new-file, but it should be good enough for most use cases
21:09
'night all! :)
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