IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 9 March 2010   (all times are UTC)

00:28Selveste1 has quit IRC
00:50
<alkisg>
For fat clients, LOCALDEV needs to be handled in a completely different way than for thin clients. I.e. ltspfs should not be started at all, and polkit-1 policy files should be modified instead.
00:52
I'm thinking of 2 different approaches for that - one is to make a lot of changes in the current code, e.g. `if ! boolean_is_true $LOCALDEV` would become `if ! boolean_is_true $LOCALDEV || boolean_is_true $LTSP_FATCLIENT`,
00:53
and the other one would be to do FAT_LOCALDEV=$LOCALDEV; LOCALDEV=False - so that all scripts think that LOCALDEV is disabled, except for a new client script, that sets up the policy files
00:53
I'm not sure of which of the 2 ways is preferred... stgraber, which would you choose?
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00:58
<alkisg>
Hmm I'll go for the second one.
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01:05
<X-Raimo>
hello. can anyone help me with pulseaudio issue http://paste.org.ru/?dyd9jg please? This happens at LTSP Server and client
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01:25* alkisg wonders where's a good place to put a "fix-polkit-1-files" script...
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02:15
<ogra>
alkisg, what does it do ?
02:16
just cp files to /etc/polkit-1/*.d/ ?
02:16
<alkisg>
ogra, I was thinking of modifying things in polkit-1, yeah, but I wonder if that's the right approach
02:16
Maybe it would be best if (1) I fixed ltsp so that the logged on users shows as ACTIVE in PK,
02:17
<ogra>
if you put them in the .d dirs i think thats the right approach
02:17
<alkisg>
and (2) created a shadow entry to enable the users to get authenticated
02:17
<ogra>
i would make an upstart job with a script that checks if you are on a fat client and based on that copies the files or not
02:17
<alkisg>
of course, *only* if the admin allows it in lts.conf
02:18
That would make fat clients work like normal ubuntu pcs
02:18
<ogra>
does ltsp-client-core expose a dm event for upstart ?
02:18
<alkisg>
and, when in the future sbalneav implements libpam_sshauth, I'd just remove the shadow entry, as it would be redudant
02:19
<ogra>
i wouldnt fiddle with shadow if possible
02:19
<alkisg>
How would the users authenticate?
02:19
E.g. I'd want an admin to be able to mount the internal disks, but not a student
02:19
<ogra>
how do they do it now ?
02:19
<alkisg>
That's not possible with ltsp currently...
02:19
They don't
02:19
<ogra>
at all ?
02:20
<alkisg>
Yup
02:20
<ogra>
oh
02:20
<alkisg>
The user cannot authenticate himself *locally*
02:20
<ogra>
i thought you already had a solution and were just held up by PK
02:20
<alkisg>
So any localapps which need authentication do not work
02:20
E.g. if the screensaver runs locally, and it locks, there's no way to unlock it
02:21
OK, storing a hash in shadow does have some security implications
02:21
<ogra>
gss talks through dbus to the session bus ;)
02:21
<alkisg>
But I think it should be there as an option
02:21
<ogra>
fix dbus ;)
02:21
<alkisg>
That wouldn't help
02:21
<ogra>
sure
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02:21
<alkisg>
I'd need to fix pam
02:21
<ogra>
you'd need to merge server and client busses
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02:22
<alkisg>
How would that help with unlocking the screensaver?
02:22
<ogra>
(in your fat client case it would have to be the system busses)
02:23
the system bus looks for an entry in shadow ... if your busses are merged it looks for that on the server
02:23
<alkisg>
But for fat clients the system bus is on the client...
02:23
<ogra>
right, because you didnt kmerge the two busses yet
02:23
<alkisg>
How can one merge 2 system busses?
02:24
<ogra>
the system busses need to be tied together at login time
02:24
with a ssh based dbus protocol :)
02:24
<alkisg>
I'm not worried about the communication part
02:24
<ogra>
in case of thin clients you use the system bus on the client and merge the session busses
02:24
<alkisg>
I just don't think it's possible to merge 2 system buses
02:24
<ogra>
in case of fat clients you run the session bus locally and merge the system busses
02:25
<alkisg>
So which networkmanager would I keep?
02:25
The server one or the client one?
02:25
Which realtimekit? which pk?
02:25
<ogra>
you would need some policies ...
02:25
<alkisg>
which avahi?
02:25
which upower?
02:25
<ogra>
as i said, you need some policies
02:25
<alkisg>
When the client wanted to get to standby, would the server also get to standby?
02:26
I think each system bus is designed to manage exactly one machine
02:26
<ogra>
all auth goes through the server bus ... all HW access through the client bus
02:26
<alkisg>
I don't think it's possible to merge 2 system busses...
02:26
<ogra>
no, but make your session bus talk to one or the other
02:26
(thats what i mean with merge :) )
02:27
network transparent dbus is the only proper solution to either thin or fat clients
02:27
and the proper set of policies
02:27
<alkisg>
I can't even begin to understand how that would work.
02:27
I think it's not designed to do that.
02:28
<ogra>
you connect your session bus to both system buses at log in (dbus needs to learn that, i thinnk sbalneav looked into various options for dbus over ssh)
02:28
and have a policy for the session bus that ll auth requests go to the server
02:28
everything else goes to the client
02:29
for thin clients you want it exactly the other way round
02:29
<alkisg>
How would a session bus be connected to 2 system busses?
02:29
<ogra>
you have two session buses that both need to connect to the clients system bus
02:29
<alkisg>
Would I duplicate all C pointers inside their source code?
02:29
<ogra>
i have no idea ...
02:29
i'm not a dbus hacker
02:30
i just say thats the only proper solution :)
02:30
<alkisg>
I mean, *all* client apps would need to be changed to support that
02:30
<ogra>
no
02:30
<alkisg>
We couldn't just change dbus for that
02:30
<ogra>
just the bus
02:30
<alkisg>
We'd need to change all apps that talk to dbus...
02:30
<ogra>
no
02:30
you need to change the dbus policies
02:31
dbus knows if an auth request comes
02:31
so it needs to route it to the right system bus
02:31
the only apps you will get probs with are gksu apps in the case of your fat client approach ...
02:31
but gksu is going away
02:32
<alkisg>
ogra, I still don't think dbus has anything to do with authentication
02:32
<ogra>
huh ?
02:32
<alkisg>
If a user wants to run something from the console, e.g. sudo ls, it won't work
02:32
<ogra>
dbus is 'all' about authentication
02:33
no, as i said, sudo apps will get you probs
02:33
<alkisg>
If he wants to run getent shadow, it won't work
02:33
So the proper way to solve this is with a pam module
02:33
<ogra>
well, there is no safe solution to that prob
02:33
nothing thats not hackish at least ...
02:33
<alkisg>
That way it would work no matter what's used at the backend
02:34
Be it ldap or libpam-sshauth
02:34
<ogra>
for GUI apps dbus provides a proper solution if you modify it the right way
02:34
<alkisg>
dbus doesn't get involved in that. It just uses whatever pam is available...
02:34
<ogra>
libpam-sshauth wont solve the dbus prob
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02:34
<alkisg>
Sure, but it will solve the authentication problem
02:34
And, for fat clients, nothing dbus-related is needed
02:35
<ogra>
well, then help finishing libpam-sshauth :)
02:35
fiddling with shadow us definately a bad idea
02:35
<alkisg>
I don't have the knowledge to do that
02:35
<ogra>
*is
02:36* ogra needs to reboot after an upgrade...
02:36
<alkisg>
ogra, I just want the fat clients plugin to work good enough for lucid
02:36
I don't see any other options here
02:37
It's either 'modifying polkit files' or 'inserting a shadow entry'
02:37
It's not nearly as bad as allowing LDM_PASSWORD...
02:37
...anyone can get that with tftp
02:38
And, the polkit approach won't be there for long - I think the shadow entry gives a more consistent user experience
02:38
Anyway, I'd appreciate any hints on how to make CK think that our session is ACTIVE... :)
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02:39
<nubae>
alkisg: and LDAP won't do?
02:40
<alkisg>
nubae: ldap would do just fine, but it's not integrated to ltsp
02:40
<nubae>
how not? its integrated enough
02:40
I use it
02:40
<alkisg>
How do you build a client that uses ldap for authentication?
02:40
<ogra>
because you picked a default setup
02:41
<nubae>
thesame way build any client
02:41
that has nothing to do with the authentication
02:41
<alkisg>
ogra, http://alkisg.pastebin.com/s6uzW0bB
02:41
<ogra>
the prob is that there is nobody who said "thats the ubuntu default, screw all other setups"
02:41
<alkisg>
nubae: are the clients authenticating *WITH LDAP*? or with ssh to the server, then THEN use ldap?
02:41
<ogra>
so if someone has an existing ltsp server that uses ldap and you enforce a default on him you will break the existing setup
02:42
<alkisg>
nubae: try this: ltsp-localapps xterm => and then login nubae. Does that work? Can you login locally?
02:42
(or, SHELL_02=shell => login as nubae)
02:42
*SCREEN_02
02:43
<nubae>
why wouldnt it work?
02:43
ldap authentication works fine across the board
02:43
<alkisg>
Because the client doesn't use ldap
02:43
The server uses ldap...
02:43
<ogra>
alkisg, fiddling with shadow is error prone and might even introduce security isssues if yousay "its either PK or shadow", go with PK
02:43
<nubae>
u set it up to use ldap
02:43
thats a 5 minute setuop
02:43
<alkisg>
nubae: so you don't use ldm
02:43
?
02:43
because ldm uses ssh, not ldap...
02:43
<nubae>
I do use ldm, that has nothing to do with it....
02:43
right
02:43
<alkisg>
Sure it does
02:44
<nubae>
but ldap supports ssh too
02:44
its an all encompassing authentication system
02:44
<alkisg>
nubae: ok, are you one a client?
02:44
<ogra>
nubae, the problem is that you might break existing ldap server setups
02:44
<nubae>
no, as many as I want
02:44
<alkisg>
Put SCREEN_02=shell, and run: getent passwd
02:44
<nubae>
why=
02:44
<alkisg>
You won't see the ldap users there. Try it.
02:44
<nubae>
the client setup is identical to a non ltsp client setup
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02:45
<ogra>
yes, the client setup should be pretty safe to do
02:45
<nubae>
I wont see why users where?
02:45
<ogra>
the server setup wont
02:45
<nubae>
I have tried it and run it... it runs just fine
02:45
The first time I ran fatclients was LDAP only... there were no issues
02:46
I just uses the passwd shadow copy hack method cause it was easier and didnt require ldap installed in the client
02:46
but both methods work
02:46
ogra: I dont understand what u mean, u dont need to change the ldap server setup
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02:46
<nubae>
it is the same as for any other system
02:46
<ogra>
ldap is surely cleaner in that case ... but there is no solution to the server side unless someone defines a standard layout for all ubuntu ldap servers
02:47
<nubae>
u mena schema wise?
02:47
mean
02:47
<ogra>
nubae, the db layout is freely choosable
02:47
right
02:47
<nubae>
ok...
02:47
<alkisg>
nubae: in any case, the client session isn't considered active. So even if ldap worked, you couldn't use the local disks etc. We'd need to fix LTSP against consolekit first.
02:47
<nubae>
now I get u... still u can have mutliple schemas
02:47
and they are very easily transferable
02:47
<ogra>
as long as there is no standard you might completely screw up existing setups
02:47
thats the biggest prob with ldap
02:48
if there would be a defined standard you could just hook into it
02:48
<nubae>
that I dont get... u're just talking about fitting an existing database into the ldap server setup... admins go through that all the time
02:48
and thats not ltsp specific
02:48
<ogra>
no
02:48
<nubae>
I'm running LDAP with ltsp right now... with a standard posix schema
02:48
it runs just fine
02:49
<ogra>
if an admin defined a schema for all the stuff he wants authenticated you cant guarantee your schema mautches
02:49
*matches
02:49
so you add your schema additionally ... that means two auth db's
02:49
<nubae>
but u can modify a schema (ldap can read more than one schema)
02:49
so?
02:49
<ogra>
which defeats the purpose of ldap :)
02:49
the admin has to maintin two auth dbs
02:50
<nubae>
vs hacking tons of scripts to get everything from local devs to sound to god knows what else working?
02:50
<ogra>
ldap will only work properly if someone finally defines a standard
02:50
<nubae>
no... u can have the auth all in one db
02:50
u dont need 2 seperate dbs
02:50
I have it in one db
02:50
<ogra>
how if the db schemas dont match ?
02:50
<nubae>
its just a matter of choosing one from the beginning
02:50
<ogra>
right
02:50
thats my point
02:51
<nubae>
but that has to be done anyway
02:51
<ogra>
the admin of the existing server already did that cice
02:51
*choice
02:51
<nubae>
there are hundreds of apps that use ldap
02:51
they must always adapt the db to make them work
02:51
<ogra>
and millions of different schemas
02:51
<nubae>
this is no different
02:51
the only issue here is that u need to know LDAP
02:51
which is easier than the violent hacks we've been doing till now
02:51
<ogra>
well, then you already lost :)
02:52
<nubae>
I'm comparing the alternatives
02:52
LDAP is not a bad one
02:52
<ogra>
how would your school teacher that probably is able to run ltsp-cild-client *know ldap* ?
02:52
<nubae>
give him webmin
02:52
<ogra>
*build
02:52
AGRH!
02:52
<nubae>
a teacher wouldnt build it
02:52
<ogra>
to trash his server ?
02:52
#no thanks
02:52
<nubae>
yeah I know u dont like it, but it actually works well with ldap
02:52
trash?
02:52
<ogra>
webmin isnt in debian and ubuntu for a reason :)
02:53
<nubae>
sigh...
02:53
yes yes the ancient argument
02:53
as if in the 5 years nothing has changed
02:53
<ogra>
it breaks configs and exposes huge security holes
02:53
<nubae>
u should actually look at webmin recently
02:53
no it doesnt
02:53
thats total propaganda
02:53
<ogra>
i'm not after looking into webmin
02:53
<alkisg>
ebox works with ldap as well, and supports windows clients + AD + samba PDC + ... as well
02:53
<ogra>
i just pointed out the weakness of ldap in that setup
02:54
<nubae>
ebox breaks far far more than webmin ever did
02:54
<alkisg>
It'll even support roaming profiles for linux clients
02:54
<nubae>
ebox is like letting a hacksaw at your server
02:54
because it DOES take over all functions
02:54
<alkisg>
ebox states exactly which files it modifies
02:54
<ogra>
anyway ... /me needs to do some real work
02:54
<nubae>
without leaving configuration files intact where they normally are
02:55
<alkisg>
webmin modifies whatever it wants and hides its security problems
02:55
<nubae>
I've never understood this ubuntu hatred towards webmin but such embracement for ebox... which is 100 times worse
02:55
no it doesnt
02:55
<alkisg>
Yup
02:55
<nubae>
it doesnt modify ANYTHING in the configuration
02:55
ebox does that
02:55
<alkisg>
See the thread on why it got out of debian/ubuntu
02:55
<nubae>
u can cleanly uninstall webmin and it would do no harm at all
02:55
<ogra>
guys, stop the flamewar :)
02:55
<nubae>
try that with ebox
02:55
ok ok
02:55
sorry...
02:55
too much coffee and no cigarettes
02:55
<alkisg>
Anyway, on to fix LTSP to work with CK...
02:55
<nubae>
gr....
02:56
<ogra>
webmin isnt there .... its no choice for ubuntu or debian
02:56
(and i think neither for fedora)
02:56
<nubae>
well it can be installed from their site
02:56
fedora its in their repo yeah
02:56
as it is in suse
02:57
that doesnt say much i know...
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03:11
<alkisg>
A "normal" session says: x11-display-device = '/dev/tty7', display-device = ''. A localapps session says: x11-display-device = '', display-device = '/dev/tty7'. I wonder how would I change that...
03:13
<ogra>
smells like there is a chvt somewhere in the code
03:13
<alkisg>
Not anymore (in the ltsp code)...
03:14* alkisg looks at the X11/Xsession code...
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03:25
<alkisg>
SCREEN_02=shell => that executes bash -login, but that's not an actual login.
03:25
Changing this to `su` makes it an actual login, i.e. HOME and USER are set, and ck-list-sessions lists that session
03:26
su needs a bit more memory than bash -login, but I think it's more appropriate...
03:26
Any reason not to change `bash -login` to `su` in screen.d/shell?
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05:48
<Hurga>
I there. I'm experiencing random crashes of Thunderbird on Ubuntu 8.04 LTSP thin clients. Is this a known issue perhaps?
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07:26
<mgariepy>
morning all
07:40
<AndyGraybeal>
hi mgariepy :) thank you for the help last night.
07:41
still didn't get autologin to work, i will come back to it.
07:45
<mgariepy>
no problem AndyGraybeal ;) it was a pleasure
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07:49
<AndyGraybeal>
is there somewhere tricky i will be setting a umask using LTSP and Ubuntu/Gnome?
07:52
<Hurga>
I'm experiencing random crashes of Thunderbird on Ubuntu 8.04 LTSP thin clients. Is this a known issue perhaps?
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08:09
<AndyGraybeal>
should i change the umask in ~/.profile or in /etc/X11/Xsessions.d ? i'm using ubuntu 8.10. i'm asking because i've been reading a lot of websites that say gnome doesn't read the ~/.profile
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08:47
<sbalneav>
Morning all
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08:48
<sbalneav>
AndyGraybeal: You'd usually want to set up a script in the Xsessions.d file
08:48
what are you wanting to change the umask to?
08:48
Maybe there's a better way to accomplish what you want
08:49
<alkisg>
There's also UMASK in /etc/login.defs, I don't know if it's used or not.
08:51
<sbalneav>
alkisg: I've never been able to tell.
08:51
I ought to spend 15 minutes at some point and find out the "proper" way to do it.
08:52
Usually, I've always done it as my own script in Xsession.d, since that's kind of "guaranteed" not to get overwritten on an update.
08:53* alkisg is struggling with consolekit... if anyone has any idea on how to tell CK about our x-display-device, I'm all ears :)
08:54
<alkisg>
Hmmm maybe that's the bug I'm seeing: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/consolekit/+bug/483130
09:04
<sbalneav>
Sounds like it.
09:05
There was some activity on the mailing list I think that talked about widening the permissions on ck to allow some of this sort of thing to happen
09:05
might that be the solution?
09:12
<alkisg>
Our first problem are not the permissions, it's that the current user is not considered "ACTIVE"
09:12
If it was active, then no policies would need to be changed
09:13
<johnny>
alkisg, so.. how does enable autologin with fat clients nowadays? editing the gdm.conf file?
09:13
<alkisg>
But I can't find out what does CK need to mark a session as active...
09:13
<johnny>
alkisg, you should ask a gnome developer
09:13
<alkisg>
johnny: the same as thin clients
09:13
johnny: no gdm involved at all
09:13
<johnny>
ah..
09:13
that was nubae's method then
09:13
not the new one
09:13
<alkisg>
Yeah
09:13
<Gadi>
alkisg: doesnt that script in the bug report fix it for you?
09:14
<alkisg>
Gadi, no, it turns out it's a different problem
09:14
<johnny>
alkisg, if you ever have obscure questions like that.. you should ask people on #gnome-hackers on irc.gnome.org/irc.gimp.net
09:14
<alkisg>
The problem he mentions was fixed in lucid
09:14
<Gadi>
alkisg: it sounds similar, as we start our session through xinit
09:14
<alkisg>
johnny: thanks, I'll join #gnome-hackers now
09:14
<johnny>
friendly people
09:14
mostly anyways :)
09:15
<alkisg>
Gadi: let me post you an example from ck-list-sessions to see the difference...
09:16
http://alkisg.pastebin.com/9dV0M2Qi
09:16
The difference is that we do get an x11-display (while he didn't), but we don't get an x11-display-device
09:17
So we need to find out how to tell CK to use `display-device` as the `x11-display-device` instead
09:18
<Gadi>
alkisg: what is the value of XDG_SESSION_COOKIE in both cases?
09:19
<alkisg>
Gadi, as far as I can see, it's ok - ck-launch-session sets it
09:21
<Gadi>
alkisg: what happens if you add a script in the fat client: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/89-stripcookie that does: unset XDG_SESSION_COOKIE
09:21
<nubae>
btw... opensuse has a fatclient version for ltsp... u should check how they are doing it
09:22
<alkisg>
Gadi: I don't think XDG_SESSION_COOKIE exists at that point
09:22
<Gadi>
it should
09:22
the next script calls: if [ -z "$XDG_SESSION_COOKIE" ] && [ -x "$CK_LAUNCH_SESSION" ]; then
09:22
STARTUP="$CK_LAUNCH_SESSION $STARTUP"
09:22
fi
09:22
<alkisg>
It gets created later on, when the STARTUP command line is evaluated
09:23
<Gadi>
oh, I see
09:23
what you mean
09:23
<alkisg>
Btw, we create 2 CK sessions, we shouldn't do that
09:23
...but that's another story :)
09:34
<AndyGraybeal>
sbalneav: hi thank you for responding. i'm thinking about setting the umask to 002
09:34
sbalneav: should i just make a file inside of /etc/X11/Xsessions.d/
09:35
sbalneav: or should i put it into a file that is already there?
09:35
<sbalneav>
Create a new file
09:35
that way it won't get overridden if something upgrades
09:35
<AndyGraybeal>
sbalneav: is ther a naming scheme for Xsessions.d ? or call it anything i like?
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09:43
<AndyGraybeal>
is see the files have numbers in front of them
09:47
i made a file named /etc/X11/Xsessions.d/45umask_002 with umask 002 .. inside fo the file and it works great!
09:47
<sbalneav>
That's to set order
09:50
<alkisg>
Gadi, are the Xsession.d scripts executed as root? Or as the user logging on?
09:50
<Gadi>
user
09:51
<alkisg>
I wonder if we need to "su" before executing them, to go through pam...
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10:25
<AndyGraybeal>
sudo /etc/init.d/ntp restart
10:25
hmm :)
10:28
<MorpheusDe>
hi there - is there more information/ documentation available regarding the thick client concept introduced in 5.2?
10:37
<johnny>
MorpheusDe, do you have a specific question about it?
10:38
<alkisg>
Here's a small wiki page I wrote about it: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/FatClients
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10:41
<MorpheusDe>
right now I'm looking through the upstream documentation and I can't find anything specifically dealing with thick clients. Being fairly new to LTSP I did not want to clutter up the server on the first install. I chrooted into the i386 jail and installed ubuntu desktop which of course did not work. As I already said a) I did not wanted to clutter up the server itself, b) wanted to have the ability to install different versions of desktop env
10:44
<thunsucker>
MorpheusDe: I believe you need to install the gnome desktop onto the server then recreate the client
10:44
<alkisg>
MorpheusDe: your message was too long and it was cutted at "have the ability to install different versions of desktop env"
10:45
But sure, you can have as many different chroots/desktop environments as you want
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10:46
<alkisg>
But you need to run ltsp-build-client --fatclient to make it. Just installing ubuntu-desktop on the chroot isn't enough
10:46
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Oops sorry - I'm able to read it ok using pidgin.. here's the rest - b) wanted to have the ability to install different versions of desktop environments - But of course the fat clients do not perform so well on weak clients - but I guess it's the only way to go if you wan to do what I tried to do
10:46
<alkisg>
The ltsp-build-client plugin does other things...
10:46
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Ahm - you mean as thick clients, right?
10:46
<alkisg>
For clients with < 500 RAM I think thin chroots are prefered
10:46
For clients with > 500, I'd go for fat
10:47
MorpheusDe: yes, thick == fat
10:47
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: To clarify - without thick clients I can't have different desktops envs on one server right?
10:47
<alkisg>
Sure you can
10:48
Both with thin & with fat clients.
10:48
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Hmm - I think I still don't get some parts of the main concept then...
10:48
<alkisg>
MorpheusDe: what do you want to have as the end result?
10:48
What are your needs?
10:49
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Primarily testing right now - Installed ltsp, installed ubuntu-desktop package on the server - so if you would add for example kde - the thin client can choose the env somehow?
10:50
<alkisg>
Yes, from ldm
10:50
But that's not the case for fat clients
10:50
For fat clients, you'd install the desktop environments *on the chroot*, not on the server
10:51
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Alright - so I could have one client booting up gnome, one kde and so on?
10:51
<alkisg>
Yes
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10:52
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Thanks - Got to do more testing on that sounds interesting....
10:52
<alkisg>
You're welcome
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10:53
<Gadi>
(heh - which brings up a good point regarding the role of ldminfod on fat clients - I suppose you need to run it locally and redirect ldm to get its info from a local ldminfod)
10:53
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Just one more question regarding the italc topic - Yesterday you said copy the keys from the server to the separate workstation - What about controlling a second ltsp server - I guess the key structure of the second machine would overwrite the one of the first...
10:54
<alkisg>
In all the "admin" PCs you need the same keys (both private & public). In all the "clients" you need the same public keys.
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10:56
<MorpheusDe>
alkisg: Yepp - you're right - that was a really stupid question - Simply a usual private public key concept....
10:57
alkisg: One more question and I'm out for more testing - I guess it's simply enough to install the italc client on the ltsp servers if I'm using a separate machine for controlling, right?
10:58
<alkisg>
Yup
10:58
<MorpheusDe>
THX
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11:09
<Webuser314>
hi, having difficulty detecting a camera in ubuntu ltsp 9.10. localdev is working in that usb memory sticks are detected correctly, but nothing for a camera. The camera (canon a95) used to work out of the box in standalone ubuntu. gphoto2 reports nothing can't seem to find anything from forums about how to troubleshoot this. any pointers? thanks
11:15
<Gadi>
Webuser314: localdev does not support PTP, only mass storage
11:15
if you can set the camera to mass storage mode, it will work
11:16
<Webuser314>
I thought the fact that it was detected in ubuntu standalone and automounted as desktop item meant that it was mass storage? I guess I was wrong?
11:16
<Gadi>
there are two ways to talk to a camera:
11:17
PTP (which is a protocol language) or USB mass storage (which just treats it as a USB flash drive)
11:18
<sbalneav>
Webuser314: Currently, LTSP doesn't support the PTP model, but a full desktop system does.
11:18
<Gadi>
right
11:18
<Webuser314>
Is there a workaround if I can't set the camera to usb mass storage?
11:19
<sbalneav>
Yes.
11:19
Yank the sd card out of the camera and read it in a reader.
11:19
<Gadi>
you might be able to install an application and run it as a LocalApp that would talk to the camera
11:19
or do what sbalneav suggests
11:19
<sbalneav>
or that, which might take some fiddling :)
11:20
<Webuser314>
I'm doing localapps already, so I might try that.....thanks again guys, this channel is always so helpful.
11:20
<sbalneav>
Webuser314: But just about any modern camera I've seen can switch back and forth
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11:26
<Hurga>
after a few reboots of the client the swap files of nbdswapd are piling up in my /tmp... how long does it take for them to be removed?
11:27
<Gadi>
Hurga: does your /etc/hosts.allow have an nbdswapd entry?
11:27
or just an nbdrootd entry?
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11:36
<alkisg>
Ugh, I'm able to use d-feet to set the active property to true: 'org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.Session', 'active', True
11:36
Then everything works properly, devices are mounted etc etc
11:37
I wonder if we could use that as a workaround (I mean, a startup script that does that) :D
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11:41
<alkisg>
stgraber: would you mind if I changed the "su -" call in X95-run-x-session to "sudo", because su creates a duplicate consolekit session?
11:44
<johnny>
alkisg, is this something i'm going to hav to be concerned about if i use fat clients?
11:44
<alkisg>
johnny: a little
11:44
I.e. right now with the default installation local devices don't work for fat clients, we get authentication problems
11:44
because the session isn't active
11:45
One way to work around it is to mess with policy files
11:45
<johnny>
ah.. well then i can't really deploy it then yet
11:45
<alkisg>
That's easy to do
11:45
Tested, works etc
11:45
But I don't think it's the right thing to do
11:45
<johnny>
can you put that on the wiki as a temporary fix?
11:45
<alkisg>
I'm going to commit something in ltsp trunk in the next few days, so no
11:46
One way or another, an upstream workaround or solution is needed
11:46
<johnny>
ah..i was hoping to deploy tonight.
11:46
<mgariepy>
hey alkisg just had the chance to test clientid in udhcp, it's not working so great on my side.
11:46
<alkisg>
mgariepy: how so?
11:46
<mgariepy>
all my thin client get the same ip address
11:46
<alkisg>
johnny: well of course you could do that tonight
11:46
<johnny>
alkisg, how so?
11:46
<alkisg>
mgariepy: you mean when using a clientid?
11:47
<johnny>
as in.. what do i do? :)
11:47
<mgariepy>
when not setting the client id, somehow, it sends the clientid=''
11:47
<alkisg>
johnny: change everything to "yes" there: /usr/share/polkit-1/actions/org.freedesktop.udisks.policy
11:47
<Hurga>
Gadi: Sorry, been AFK. Yes, my /etc/hosts.allow does have an nbdswapd entry.
11:47
<johnny>
alkisg, thanks
11:48
<alkisg>
mgariepy: that's the same as before, isn't it?
11:48
<mgariepy>
yeah indeed,
11:48
<alkisg>
mgariepy: or it is "null" vs "quotes" ?
11:48
<johnny>
alkisg, my server has 2 gb ram.. and is used as a desktop in it's own right.. is that going to cause any problems ya think?
11:48
<mgariepy>
alkisg, could we include the "-c ''" in the $clientid ?
11:49
<alkisg>
johnny: no
11:49
mgariepy: let me give you a small patch...
11:49
<mgariepy>
my lease contain two single quote as as uid
11:50
<alkisg>
mgariepy: delete this line:
11:50
clientid=${clientid:-"''"}
11:50
completely
11:50
And change the call to:
11:50
if udhcpc -n -c "$clientid" -s /tmp/dhcp-script.sh -i $i $hostname_param $ip_param >/dev/null 2>&1; then
11:50
And see if that works
11:51
<johnny>
i'm so ready to upgrade to f13 :)
11:51
just waiting for the most annoying bug for me to get fixed.. related to gnome-keyring
11:54
<mgariepy>
alkisg, much better
11:54
<alkisg>
mgariepy: should I commit that? It also looks cleaner that the quoted version... :D
11:54
*then
11:55
<mgariepy>
i thinks you should commit it, if you don't i might do it ;) haha
11:56
<alkisg>
Heh, no, commiting now..
11:57
done
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12:13
<mgariepy>
alkisg, thanks :)
12:13
<alkisg>
np - thanks for the VTs :)
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12:38
<joeasaurus>
hey
12:38
i need some help
12:38
please
12:40
I'm trying to set up a cluster of terminal servers using ltsp-cluster
12:40
and i think ive got it set up right, I cant see anything wrong
12:40
but when I got to boot a client, it can't pull the file from TFTP
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12:44
<joeasaurus>
Anyone upi for helping out?
12:45
up*
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12:47
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: ltsp-cluster does not pull lts.conf from tftp
12:47
it contact the control center over http
12:47
<shaunak>
Hey I am trying to change the easy-ltsp GUI code. Can anyone help me how to compile the new code and see the changes ? The code is in C#
12:49
<joeasaurus>
I know that Gadi, I mean it wont pull the image
12:49
the DHCP works so it gets an address but then it just hangs
12:50
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: ah - by the "file" you meant pxelinux.0
12:50
<joeasaurus>
uuh yeah
12:50
sorry, should have said so really
12:50
<Gadi>
that has nothing to do with the cluster
12:51
make sure you only have inetd on the boot server
12:51
<joeasaurus>
Oh right..what should i be looking at?
12:51
<Gadi>
and not xinetd
12:51
<joeasaurus>
okay
12:51
hang on a sec
12:51
<Gadi>
then, make sure you have tftp listening (netstat -anp|grep :69)
12:53
<joeasaurus>
okay so i have inetd and not xinetd
12:53
and i believe tftp is listening
12:53
udp 0 0 0.0.0.0:69 0.0.0.0:*
12:55
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: ps -efw|grep tftp
12:56
<joeasaurus>
cluster 2618 2575 0 18:57 pts/0 00:00:00 grep --color=auto tftp
12:56
<Gadi>
that's good
12:57
what error do you get on the client?
12:57
<joeasaurus>
I get "TFTP timeout"
12:57
or something similar
12:59
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: do you have more than one network interface in the server?
13:00
<joeasaurus>
Yeah but Im not using them atm, I have all the servers talking to each other and the clients through a switch
13:01
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: but are more than one of them configured to an IP on the same subnet?
13:01
<joeasaurus>
no
13:01
<Gadi>
(ie, your routing table might be screwed up)
13:01
<joeasaurus>
they're not configured for anything
13:01
but ill check the routes anyways
13:02
<Gadi>
so ifconfig shows only one?
13:02
<joeasaurus>
nah it shows all three but only one has an ip address, the other two just display there HW address
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13:03
<joeasaurus>
this is my routing table
13:04
192.168.10.128 * 255.255.255.192 U 0 0 0 eth1
13:04
link-local * 255.255.0.0 U 1000 0 0 eth1
13:04
default 192.168.10.189 0.0.0.0 UG 100 0 0 eth1
13:06
with 192.168.10.128 as the network and 192.168.10.189 as the gateway
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13:10
<Gadi>
255.255.255.192?
13:10
did you configure dhcpd.conf that way, as well?
13:10
default is: 255.255.255.0
13:11
plus, with this netmask, you will only be able to boot a handful of clients
13:13
<joeasaurus>
yup dhcp is all set up
13:13
Ill paste the conf for you
13:13
I'm only planning on nine clients to start with
13:14pimpministerp has joined #ltsp
13:14
<Gadi>
ok - make sure it is /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf you are editing
13:14
<joeasaurus>
oh?
13:14
i didnt know that file existed
13:15
ive been doing the dhcp3 one
13:15
<Gadi>
ah - surprise!
13:15
:)
13:15
<joeasaurus>
ive just gone to edit that file
13:15
<Gadi>
you may just need to copy your edited one there and restrt dhcp3-server
13:15
<joeasaurus>
and it doesn't exist
13:15
yeah alright ill do that
13:16
<Gadi>
really?
13:16primeministerp has quit IRC
13:16
<Gadi>
did you install ltsp-server on that machine?
13:16
<joeasaurus>
yeah
13:16
the directory is there
13:16
<Gadi>
because it should put that as default
13:16
<joeasaurus>
but that dhcp file isnt
13:16
<Gadi>
huh
13:16
well, dhcp3-server will look for /etc/ltsp first and then /etc/dhcp3
13:17
so, maybe that wasnt the issue
13:17
still, please paste the conf
13:17
<joeasaurus>
ill copy it over anyways then
13:17
<Gadi>
ok
13:17
and restart the service
13:19
<joeasaurus>
I'll pastebin it because irc wont let my message span more than one line
13:19
ive copied it and restarted the service though
13:20
http://pastebin.com/6BJEm6Rr
13:23
<Gadi>
filename should be: /ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0
13:23
<joeasaurus>
it used to be that but i changed it to see if it mattered
13:24
and it doesnt :P
13:24
<Gadi>
(unless you set up your tftp server manually)
13:24
<joeasaurus>
coz i saw a config that had an if in it
13:24
<Gadi>
and your server is 192.168.10.181?
13:24
<joeasaurus>
yeah
13:25
<Gadi>
try setting option subnet-mask
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13:25
<Gadi>
ie: option subnet-mask 255.255.255.192;
13:26
<joeasaurus>
oh, btw, i remember, I changed a config to go all the way to ltsp so that i only need /i386/pxelinux.0
13:27
coz that makes more sense to me to have the arch folder as the differentiator and not the ltsp folder
13:27
if that makes sense?
13:27shaunak has quit IRC
13:28
<Gadi>
it makes sense if you dont use tftp for anything else - of course, by changing it, it makes getting support a heck of a lot harder
13:30
<alkisg>
...and it also breaks ltsp-update-kernels :)
13:30
<joeasaurus>
yeah, I only use tftp for this
13:30
I'll change it back if its better that way?
13:31
I only changed the one line so it's no hassle
13:33
okay, I changed it
13:33
/etc/default/tftpd-hpa now reads:
13:33
RUN_DAEMON="no"
13:33
OPTIONS="-l -s /var/lib/tftpboot"
13:34
/etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf has the options subnet-mask
13:34
and ive changed filename to /letsp/i386/pxelinux.0
13:38
I cant test the clients atm coz they're at my college
13:40
<Gadi>
joeasaurus: is there any particular reason you are using such a restricted and non-standard subnet mask? Are you limited by the college?
13:40
<joeasaurus>
Well, the whole thing is a project me and my networking teacher have going
13:40
<Gadi>
ah, ok
13:40
<joeasaurus>
and he manages 3/4 different labs
13:41
so he had to slot the cluster inside one of the ranges he had
13:41
and 192 was the biggest
13:42
it gives us 62 hosts though so it's enough, I wouldnt really call it restricted. It's not a /29 or anything :P
13:42
<Gadi>
well, restricted relative to the default
13:43
<joeasaurus>
yeah, i got ya. I'm pretty sure the dhcp is set up correctly though. The clients get an IP address like i said, the boot just fails at the TFTP is all
13:45
<Gadi>
which is why I suggest the option subnet-mask
13:45
<joeasaurus>
yeah
13:45
<Gadi>
you would get the same thing if, for example, you set a weird MTU option in dhcp
13:45
<joeasaurus>
oh right
13:46
<Gadi>
the client may not have its interface configured to access the network properly
13:46
<joeasaurus>
nah, it does
13:46
<Gadi>
you dont know that
13:46
<joeasaurus>
coz they are windows computers during the day
13:46
so i know they can use the network xD
13:46
<Gadi>
which means they are physically connected properly
13:46
<joeasaurus>
yeah
13:47
<Gadi>
that doesnt mean that when they pxe boot, that dhcp is configuring the nic properly
13:47
<joeasaurus>
aah i see what you mean
13:47
well when the pxe is up
13:47
it shows all the info
13:47
it has IP Address, subnet
13:47
dhcp server address
13:47
and gateway
13:48
and dns address too i believe
13:48
but i guess it could show that and not actually apply the settings
13:48
<Gadi>
hmm...
13:48
well, you should be able to sniff the traffic and see where it dies
13:49
<joeasaurus>
okay
13:50
so imma try and boot them tomorrow
13:50
and sniff the traffic as it happens
13:50
and then I'll get back to you in the evening?
13:51
<Gadi>
ah, Norway
13:51
yes, evening
13:51
:)
13:51
<joeasaurus>
well, about this time again?
13:51
<Gadi>
sounds good
13:51
<joeasaurus>
alright, cool
13:51
thanks alot :)
13:52
<Gadi>
cheers
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14:04
<vandys>
I have an eeeBox B202, it hangs after loading the LTSP client image. From scanning reports, it sounds like I need the jme.ko driver in the client boot image?
14:04
If so, how do I go about rebuilding the client boot image with this module configured in? Pointers to a procedure would be most welcome! Thanks.
14:06
<Gadi>
vandys: add a line that reads: jme to /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/initramfs-tools/modules
14:06
vandys: for good measure, I would also add it to: /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/modules
14:06
then:
14:07
chroot /opt/ltsp/i386
14:07
mount -t proc proc /proc
14:07
update-initramfs -u
14:07
/usr/share/ltsp/update-kernels
14:07
umount /proc
14:07
exit
14:07
sudo ltsp-update-kernels
14:07
done
14:10
<vandys>
update-kernels was in /usr/lib/ltsp, otherwise all commands worked... lemme go spin up the client and see if it's happier (thanks!)
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14:13
<vandys>
Darn, still hangs, last thing is IP-Config talking about a DHCP RARP. :-(
14:15
<Gadi>
vandys: sounds like you are an old distro
14:15
you may not have the jme module
14:15
find /opt/ltsp/i386/lib/modules|grep jme
14:15
<vandys>
I'm on karmic:
14:16
<Gadi>
you cant be if you had to do /usr/lib/ltsp
14:16
<vandys>
Modules in /lib/modules/2.6.31-20-generic/kernel/drivers/net/jme.ko, and the obvious earlier version paths?
14:17
<Gadi>
is your chroot a karmic chroot?
14:17
<vandys>
Although if I chroot it's feisty? I certainly didn't mean to hold back my LTSP version!
14:17
<Gadi>
hehe
14:17
you need to build a karmic chroot
14:17
THEN, do the above commands
14:18
<vandys>
Can you point me at a page to tell me how to make this happen? :->
14:18
<Gadi>
well, is it okay to delete your current chroot?
14:18
<vandys>
Sure, I think I have a couple tweaks which would be easy to save aside. Nothing major.
14:19
<Gadi>
then, simply sudo rm -rf /opt/ltsp
14:19
er
14:19
sorry
14:19
sudo rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386
14:19
(you can back up the /opt/ltsp/images/i386.img to i386-feisty.img to be safe
14:19
and then, simply: sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386
14:20
if your server is karmic, you should wind up with a karmic chroot
14:20
<vandys>
Ah, I'd wondered about that command. I have lots of disk space, so I'll just mv it aside and give that command a spin. Thanks MUCH!
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14:56
<alkisg>
$%(*#(%*#$% FINALLY a whole day to find out that ck-launch-session is broken, and su doesn't work for display sessions
14:57
I got a python script that properly sets up a CK session.... now to adapt it for ldm/fat clients etc...
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16:29
<Ahmuck>
hi. i did an update 4-5 days ago, and now have no login on gdm
16:29
just a blank box
16:29
any ideas?
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16:32
<alkisg>
gdm on the clients?
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16:40
<Ahmuck>
server
16:40
hrm, not tried the clients yet
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16:41
<alkisg>
So it isn't an ltsp-related problem, right?
16:43
<Ahmuck>
i'm guessing so, but not sure. i did "sudo aptitude update" and then "sudo aptitude safe-upgrade" and upon reboot had no way to login. background, accesability icon, and a black box where the login normally is
16:44
<alkisg>
Goodnight all
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16:48
<laron>
Having trouble making apps run locally on clients
16:49
When I add the l add the lts.conf file
16:49
and rebuild the image, everything works fine
16:49
except, it wont allow any users to login
16:52
<Ahmuck>
started when?
16:53
<laron>
im sorry?
16:53
<Ahmuck>
when did it start? new install or just recently?
16:53
<laron>
new install
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18:16
<Lns>
just making sure, is there a bug anyone knows about about the gnome panel logout/reboot/shutdown/etc menu just going back to LDM after hitting shutdown?
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19:18
<johnny>
Lns, isn't that what you want to happen?
19:19
<Lns>
johnny: not if I hit shutdown....
19:19
wouldn't you think anybody would expect the client to ...umm...shut down when you hit...umm...shutdown? ;)
19:19
<johnny>
Lns, that's not possible
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19:20
<Lns>
johnny: how about if its a fat client?
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19:21
<johnny>
Lns, .. more possible..
19:21
but who knows what happens with ldm in that regard..
19:21
Lns, you'd have to talk to alkisg about that
19:21
<Lns>
I will real soon hopefully =)
19:21
just built up a saucy atom 330 tc
19:22
building a fat client chroot as i type
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19:26
<Lns>
cheers all
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20:07
<Ahmuck>
johnny: actually, i expected the thin client to shutdown as well when selecting shutdown
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21:40
<jammcq>
hellooooooo
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21:57
<rjune>
!j
21:57
<ltspbot>
rjune: "j" :: jammcq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:57
<rjune>
How you doing mate?
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22:12
<jammcq>
rjune: hey
22:12
i'm doing well. how's things in Indiana?
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<rjune>
been better been worse
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23:30
<johnny>
hmm.. so i just put a new terminal in place with 512mb ram alkisg ..
23:30
now all 3 have 512mb
23:30
one problem.. it seems stuck at 800x600 by default
23:31
it's got some nforce chipset in it
23:31
the equivalent of a geforce4 (nv18)
23:32
<alkisg>
Lucid? Or Karmic?
23:32
<johnny>
karmic
23:33
i'll be upgrading to lucid on that machine once it is actually released
23:33
wanna let the karmic fall out continue
23:33
before causing more cascading problems :)
23:33
<alkisg>
That would be a driver problem, i.e. not detecting monitor EDID
23:34
<johnny>
yes.. that seems to be the case
23:34
<alkisg>
You could either install the nvidia proprietary drivers on the chroot, *IF* you only have nvidia clients, or you could force X_VERTREFRESH and X_HORZSYNC
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23:37
<johnny>
well.. lucid uses nouveau
23:37
so.. it should work fine when i upgrade
23:37
<alkisg>
Right, that's why I asked
23:37
<johnny>
yeah.. i just can't do that yet
23:38
<alkisg>
But it's easy to set X_HORZSYNC, so you could try that until you do
23:38
<johnny>
what should i have in total
23:38
it's an lcd screen
23:38
<alkisg>
What's the correct resolution?
23:38
<johnny>
hmm. good question..
23:39
i'm not sure what is correct :)
23:39
<alkisg>
The following should give you 1024x768
23:39
X_HORZSYNC=30.0-61.0
23:39
X_VERTREFRESH=50.0-88.0
23:39
<johnny>
yeah.. that sounds good enough for now
23:39
do i have to set CONFIGURE_X too?
23:39
<alkisg>
No
23:40
<johnny>
that sounds good.. thanks alkisg
23:40
set
23:40
i'm not there..
23:40
so i hope it comes up tomorrow :)
23:40
<alkisg>
How's the overall performace?
23:40
*n
23:41
<johnny>
i didn't get a chance to set the fat client stuff up yet
23:41
<alkisg>
k
23:42
<johnny>
i'm going to do that tomorrow
23:42
i thought i'd have time tonight
23:42
but.. no dice
23:42
in fact.. i might have to wait til thursday
23:42
since i'm working there tomorrow
23:42
but only have to do tech for an event on thursda..
23:43
<alkisg>
I've pin-pointed down the CK problem, I hope I'll commit a workaround for it tomorrow: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/535521
23:43
<johnny>
swell
23:43
just don't bet scared to talk to upstream directly :)
23:43
the gnome folks are pretty cool
23:44
i think i'm going try to upgrade my own laptop to fedora 13 alpha in the next few days
23:44
<alkisg>
Is there a separate "freedesktop" team for such stuff, or the half of them are gnome team members as well?
23:45
<johnny>
i probably wouldn't have upgraded to karmic if i didn't also have to upgrade to karmic before lucid..
23:45
<alkisg>
I mean, maybe I should be talking to #freedesktop instead of #gnome-hackers...
23:45
<johnny>
well for some of of yes
23:45
just depends on who hangs out in the freedesktop channel..
23:45
not sure if davidz for example is often in freedesktop or not
23:46
<alkisg>
Well yesterday I only got a responce from #gnome-hackers, so... :D
23:46
<johnny>
exactly..
23:46
:)
23:46
the gnome people are pretty awesome
23:46
hmm.. if mythbuntu had a powerpoint viewer..
23:47
ah.. also need wireless.. can't forget that
23:47
my next project is to setup a computer hooked up to the project
23:47
projector*
23:47
the hard part is the wiring
23:47
since the projector is mounted on the ceiling
23:48
ah..
23:49
alkisg, wanna see?
23:49
<alkisg>
Sure
23:49
You could have a small thin client up there ;)
23:50
<johnny>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/radarredux/4402142663/
23:50
the screen goes in front of the bookcases
23:50
i have considered a small thin client..
23:50
but that means..
23:51
i hae to get up on a stool to put in a flash drive
23:51
<alkisg>
Nice place you got there :)
23:51
<johnny>
and it means it's impossible to plug up a wired keyboard
23:52
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43517501@N00/4094307906/
23:53
that's a pic from the outside..
23:53
<alkisg>
Well you could put a vga cable... I think they go up to 5m
23:53
<johnny>
sure..
23:53
but then i have to be careful of the window
23:54
i want it on the side of the window, not the bar
23:54
<alkisg>
Ah
23:54
<johnny>
because the bathroom is over on the bar side
23:54
don't want people interrupting the speaker/movie/presentation
23:54
<alkisg>
There are also wireless vga broadcasting devices, but they'd cost some money
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23:54
<johnny>
yeah.. probably more than i wanna spend
23:54
there are some big posts in the windows
23:55
but that just means the cable must be a bit longer
23:55
i wish vga cables were a bit thinner..
23:55
that'd help
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23:57
<johnny>
alkisg, .. yeah.. we have 3 spaces now..
23:57
but we don't have any tech stuff at the free school
23:57
it has 3 big windows
23:57
and they aren't barred in any way..
23:57
and the place isn't occupied at all times
23:57
also.. every instructor has a set of keys
23:57
so..
23:58
would be easy for stuff to disappear in a number of ways
23:58
<alkisg>
Yeah, things would need to be bolted down
23:59
<johnny>
yeah.. but.. that kinda makes it hard when only 1/20 classes need any technology
23:59
would take up too much space