IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 19 December 2008   (all times are UTC)

00:00
<Ryan52>
your email should go like this:
00:00
Package: blah
00:00
00:00
blah blah blah blah blah
00:00
<warren>
Package: unalz
00:00
?
00:00
Ryan52: this package is in debian proper right? I don't know how to tell if it is non-free.
00:01
<Ryan52>
it's in main.
00:01
no, "Package: ftp.debian.org" :)
00:01
the name of the package that you want to be removed goes in the subject line.
00:02* Ryan52 wonders if he's making any sense at all..
00:02
<Ryan52>
/g 32
00:03
<warren>
Package: ftp.debian.org
00:03
that makes no sense to me
00:03
why is that a package?
00:04* Ryan52 rereads what you're asking..
00:05
<Ryan52>
ohhhh.
00:05
if it needs to be moved to non-free then the package should be the actual package name.
00:05* Ryan52 thought you thought it should be removed.
00:06
<warren>
what are the requirements for non-free?
00:07
non-commercial with no modifications allowed is allowed there?
00:08
<Ryan52>
I don't even know..
00:11
<johnny>
Ryan52, is flash allowed there?
00:11
if not.. then this probably isn't..
00:12
<Ryan52>
the flash package downloads a tarball from adobe.com and installs it, so I guess it isn't..
00:14
<johnny>
where is the flash package tho?
00:14
<Ryan52>
non-free
00:14
<johnny>
that means the package could possibly go into non-free then :)
00:14
similiar terms
00:16
Ryan52, .. so.. back to packagekit..
00:16
<Ryan52>
ya :)
00:16
<johnny>
it has helpers for udev (ie: devices that require certain drivers), gstreamer (codecs), browser plugins
00:19
<Ryan52>
it's not even in debian yet, which sucks..
00:20
<warren>
Ryan52: Just think of all the new and cool things you get with Fedora, and plus we're very militant about software and driver freedom.
00:21
<johnny>
and more.. but i'm having trouble fidning the list
00:22
i even see one for wine-doors ..
00:22
one request at least..
00:22
that'd be neat..
00:24
<Ryan52>
warren, hehe
00:24
<warren>
so militant that it pisses off our users and they leave for Ubuntu
00:25
<johnny>
isn't that what happens with debian too?
00:25
<warren>
johnny: sure, except the ability to get stuff done is a bit different...
00:25
Fedora is a meritocracy, not a democracy.
00:26
Although we do have elections
00:26
<johnny>
warren, now if only we could have working free nvidia drivers...
00:26
and free er wireless drivers
00:26
<warren>
johnny: NVidia and Broadcom are the only major holdouts...
00:26
<johnny>
yeah
00:26
broadcom is the devil
00:26
<warren>
fortunately most of Broadcom was reverse engineered
00:27
unfortunately, that allows rewarding Broadcom for their bad behavior
00:27
<johnny>
warren, lemme know when there's a working driver for my wrt54g that will let me upgrade to a 2.6 kernel :)
00:28
<warren>
johnny: I thought there already is
00:28
<johnny>
maybe i missed it
00:28
<warren>
johnny: they reverse engineered it
00:28
<johnny>
if it was done in the last year
00:28
before that.. there wasn't.. that is a fact
00:28
i'm still using an openwrt access point at the store
00:28
<warren>
I don't know if the people who make firmware are using it
00:29
johnny: oh, the driver was reverse engineered, but the firmware is not legally redistributable
00:30
<johnny>
sure.. but i can still use a newer kernel :)
00:30
well.. the firmware issue is tough.. you can always hide behind fcc regulations on that one..
00:39
<dberkholz>
Ryan52: yeah, i agree. we don't have an obvious site like patches.gentoo.org with patches sorted by package.
00:43
<warren>
Ryan52: am i incorrect... but it seems the patches at Debian/Ubuntu are rather difficult to steal from as well? one giant diff on top of upstream source? We split out 99% of our patches into functional parts.
00:44
<Ryan52>
that's changed.
00:44
most packages use a patch system.
00:44
quilt and dpatch
00:45
and we have http://patch-tracking.debian.net/
00:47
<warren>
oh
00:47
well that's good
00:57
<Ryan52>
warren, just curious, but how long does it take to become a fedora developer (or whatever you call the poeple who can upload stuff and are part of the project)?
00:58
<warren>
Ryan52: not long at all
00:58
Ryan52: if you are technically competent and you have a sponsor member it could be an hour.
00:59
<Ryan52>
woah...
00:59
<warren>
Ryan52: we recently added a "provisional" membership level for new packagers to join at a restricted level, where their skills can be fostered and trained by a mentor.
01:00
Ryan52: those members are restricted by security policies to be able to modify only packages granted by the mentor or other package owners.
01:00
Ryan52: full members can modify almost anything (but they will likely get flamed and punished if they do so without permission)
01:00
<Ryan52>
I ask because a long time ago a Debian Developer said "and it only takes 12 hours to become a fedora developer", and I thought he was exaggerating...I guess not. :)
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01:03
<warren>
Ryan52: it depends if you are able to read and use tools...
01:03
Ryan52: (most humans fail)
01:03
<Ryan52>
heh
01:15
<warren>
Ryan52: I'm willing to walk you through what is necessary to be a fedora developer. Some of the fedora developers are also debian developers. Even some RH engineers who have been with RH nearly 10 years...
01:19
<Ryan52>
nah, I'm good with Debian for now :)
01:19
I don't even use Fedora (at the moment), so, uhh, ya :p
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01:28
<Ryan52>
heh. I hope http://docs.fedoraproject.org/developers-guide/ch-menus.html is outdated about the errors if a .desktop file doesn't have the Encoding key. Debian's tools complain if it *does* have it, because it's deprecated, and should always be UTF-8.
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01:42
<warren>
Ryan52: oh, don't venture out of the wiki
01:43
<Ryan52>
oh? what should I be looking at?
01:43
<warren>
Ryan52: the stuff outside of the wiki is poorly maintained
01:43
<Ryan52>
hrm.
01:44
<warren>
Ryan52: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join
01:45
Ryan52: everything important is linked from here
01:45
Ryan52: The burden of standards compliance is a bit different from Debian
01:46
<Ryan52>
what do you mean?
01:46
<warren>
Ryan52: Fedora will break peoples knees and force changes across the entire distro if central committees decide that a packaging standard should happen.
01:46
<Ryan52>
oh :)
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02:37
<johnny>
lol.. on the amtrakguestrewards snowflake creator site.
02:37
Amtrak is not responsible for the views or ideas posted on this site unless theyre very witty, exceptionally charming and universally liked.
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07:14
<EAG>
does anyone know how to fix choppy video in flash?
07:15
i.e is there something special one needs to do on the client/server?
07:24
<rjune_>
EAG: usually run it on the terminal
07:28
<EAG>
sorry, I meant in e.g. firefox
07:28
<rjune_>
I know
07:28
what's the resolution of the flash video?
07:29
<EAG>
dont know, I guess it varies
07:29
<rjune_>
video is usually choppy because of the bandwidth required
07:29
though in some cases, it can be the cpu load as well, top on the server should show you cpu load
07:30
bandwidth reqs are Xres * Yres * colourDepth * framesPerSecond
07:31
<EAG>
the hardware should be sufficient
07:31
<rjune_>
so 320x240 with 16bit colour and 24fps needs ~ 29491200bits/sec or 29Mbit/sec
07:31
<EAG>
and its 100 MBit connection to the server
07:36
hmm maybe I need to consider gigabit
07:36
<stgraber>
ogra: you said vagrantc now has a different source package for the ldm themes, where can I find it ?
07:36
ogra: I had a quick look at packages.debian.org without much success
07:36
<EAG>
I solved my xvideo-problem btw if anyone cares
07:37
<rjune_>
what was it?
07:37
<EAG>
:)
07:37
in the end it was only a simple "option texturedvideo "on"" in xorg.conf
07:38
but I had to use the chrooted lts.conf in order to get my custom xorg.conf to be read
07:39
thx for all the help I got.
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07:54
<superbockster>
hey all. Got a small issue with a thin client... All works great but the mouse pointer is "invisible" (meaning it works but its not visible)... LTSP5 on FC10. Any hints ?
07:56
<alkisg>
EAG: which video card had this problem?
07:56
<rjune_>
superbockster: you've tried in gnome, right?
07:57
<EAG>
alkisg: ati x1250
07:57
<superbockster>
rjune: gnome AND kde. Same issue.
07:57
<alkisg>
EAG, thanks
07:57
<superbockster>
the mouse pointer doesn't even show up at the login prompt
07:58
<rjune_>
odd, dunno
07:58
<superbockster>
hm... it seems that the X "control" variables in lts.conf are a bit different ...
07:58
<alkisg>
superbockster: I guess a video driver problem, tries to use accelleration but doesn't manage it well. Does it work if you specify XSERVER=vesa?
08:00
<superbockster>
alkisg: nope, didn't try it yet. Yesterday I've tried setting a X option on lts.conf (SWCursor true), but I believe I've used the wrong syntax
08:00
<alkisg>
!lts.conf
08:00
<ltspbot`>
alkisg: "lts.conf" is http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtsConf
08:02
<superbockster>
ok, that's odd ... in the wiki there's no reference to "X_OPTION_0x" (x being 1, 2, 3 ...) ...
08:02
<alkisg>
superbockster: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/LtsConf#X_DEVICE_OPTION_01_through_X_DEV
08:03
<superbockster>
alkisg: tried that one but it seems to be ignored ... but in the documentation ( http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html ) there's a reference to a "X_OPTION_xx" ...
08:03
<alkisg>
superbockster: in recent versions, you also have to specify CONFIGURE_X=True, which distro are you using?
08:03
<superbockster>
Fedora 10
08:04
<alkisg>
Oh, no idea
08:04
<superbockster>
hm... gonna try that. I'll give u guys feedback in a bit
08:04
<alkisg>
superbockster: you may also try getltscfg from a client (if F10 has it)
08:05
...or simply logon to a terminal and cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf...
08:09
<EAG>
hmm another "bug" is that Xorg.6.log reports: (==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf"
08:09
when it doesnt... it uses the custom-xorg.conf-file with another name than xorg.conf
08:17
<superbockster>
setting CONFIGURE_X=true and X_OPTION_01="\"SWCursor\" \"true\"" didn't work. Trying "XSERVER = vesa" ...
08:20
... and it didn't work either
08:21
getltscft -a reports XSERVER="vesa" (and 'export XSERVER')
08:21
<alkisg>
superbockster: try this: X_DEVICE_OPTION_01 = "SWCursor true"
08:22
<superbockster>
alkisg: ok, but I guess the syntax is wrong.
08:22
<alkisg>
I'm seeing it there: http://marc.info/?l=ltsp-discuss&m=114346513723255&w=2
08:22
And if Gadi says it, I believe it... :)
08:22
<superbockster>
check http://www.ltsp.org/~sbalneav/LTSPManual.html (look for X_OPTION )
08:23
<alkisg>
(ok - it may be an obsolete syntax... :))
08:24
<superbockster>
ahhh! *that* thread at marc.info ... I read it yesterday .. .but check the next message in thread :-) It refers to ltsp 4 (and not 5 )
08:25
<alkisg>
superbockster: do a "cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf" to see if the option actually gets there...
08:25
<superbockster>
there is *no* xorg.conf anywhere to be seen ...
08:25
gimme a sec, tryin a couple things
08:26* alkisg wonders why he is talking, since he doesn't know anything about fedora...
08:28
<superbockster>
all distros are basically the same when it comes to ltsp ... :)
08:30
<alkisg>
superbockster: I don't think so... Anyway, if everything else fails, you may specify X_CONF="some file in the chroot"
08:31
<superbockster>
ok this is weird ...
08:32
getltscfg -a states that I'm using XSERVER=vesa ... but if I check /var/log/Xorg.1.log, it states taht the "New driver is "openchrome" ...
08:33
is it me or the x server is ignoring the lts.conf parameters ?
08:34
<EAG>
you've noticed too? ;)
08:36
<superbockster>
grr..
08:37
<sbalneav>
Morning all
08:37
<rjune_>
!s
08:37
<ltspbot`>
rjune_: "s" is Scotty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
08:37
<EAG>
try using the lts.conf in the chroot and run ltsp-update-image
08:37
<alkisg>
hello sbalneav
08:37
<EAG>
if nothing else works..
08:37
thats what I had to do
08:38
<alkisg>
superbockster: try with x_conf
08:38* _UsUrPeR_ shakes the show off his EVERYTHING
08:38
<_UsUrPeR_>
good morning all
08:38
<superbockster>
EAG: cant ... got 3 thin clients in use atm
08:39
<alkisg>
superbockster: why don't you do an X -configure :1, then edit the new xorg.conf to include the swcursor option, and then run X to verify that this will actually fix your problem?
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08:44
<superbockster>
alkisg: hm ? Can u explain that ?
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08:47
<alkisg>
superbockster: I'm just suggesting that you try this option to see that it actually works as you expect... logon to a TC (e.g. with SCREEN_02=shell), then do X -configure :1 so that a new xorg.conf gets created, then edit it with vi to include the SWCursor option, and then run X -config ..the new xorg file
08:49
<superbockster>
guess I'l go the easier way: connect a hard disk to the thin client :-)
08:49
to diagnose, that is
08:50
<alkisg>
superbockster: or a live cd... :)
08:51
<superbockster>
fsck ... no SATA connector . Oh well ...
08:53
either way, it seems that it IS reading lts.conf (the X server commands)... set the resolution to 800x600 and it did change
08:53
so I guess the SWCursor option isnt the solution
08:54
(tried 'true' and 'false', btw)
08:54
<alkisg>
superbockster: have you also tried HWCursor false? They're supposed to be complementary, but you never know.. :)
08:55
<superbockster>
yup. SW and HW
08:56
btw, this is a "VIA unichrome"
08:56
any known issues ? :s
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09:09
<alkisg>
I'm trying to create a project that will consist of a main GUI program and several plugins=scripts, to help teachers administer an LTSP-based lab... Can someone point me to any project that I can use as a template? I'd prefer a gnome-based one... I.e, where to put the source, which dirs to create... Or, can the GNU Hello program be used as a template?
09:09
<sbalneav>
Doesn't iTalc do a lot of this?
09:10
<alkisg>
sbalneav: E.g. I'll be able to see all the users organized in classes, select a whole class, and invoke the script that sets a specific wallpaper
09:10
iTalc is qt based, I don't think I can use it as a template...
09:11
<sbalneav>
But it does what you want, right?
09:11
<alkisg>
sbalneav: no, not at all
09:11
It doesn't have anything to do with user management
09:12
<sbalneav>
Well, you'd use Sabayon/Pessellus for that.
09:12
<alkisg>
sbalneav: I can't create a folder on each user desktop for users in A class with either sabayon or pessulus
09:13
Also, they don't support plugins
09:13
E.g. I want a plugin that downloads the names of the students in my class from a specific site on the internet, and creates the respective user accounts
09:13
<sbalneav>
So, rather than write a whole new tool FROM SCRATCH, why not just ADD plugin support to Sabayon?
09:14
<alkisg>
Does sabayon display the user list?
09:14
<sbalneav>
No, but iTalc does
09:14
<alkisg>
No, it doesn't
09:14
It only displays the logged on users
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09:15
<alkisg>
The one closer to what I'm thinking is users-admin
09:15
But it's kind of "sensitive" because it involves security, I don't know if I'll be able to get my modifications approved for this
09:17
....but I could use users-admin as a template!!! :) :) :) Thanks, sbalneav! :)
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09:17
<sbalneav>
I'd be all for modifying an existing tool. I think adding "Yet Another Tool" out there just makes management harder, not easier.
09:20
Besides, you've already really GOT a tool for doing things based on a per-user or per-group basis: the /etc/X11/Xsession.d mechanism. Create scripts that do what you need, (i.e. create folders, set gconf vars, etc) and drop 'em in /etc/X11/Xsession.d
09:20
<alkisg>
sbalneav: The problem is that I want to do it to actually use it from the next school year, I'm not doing it just for the fun of it... So if I spend some months trying to get the modifications approved for, say, sabayon, and they don't get accepted, I will have to maintain a branch of someone else's code...
09:20
sbalneav: I'm talking about teachers that *have* to act as admins... They'll want to keep away from the console, if possible.
09:21
<sbalneav>
You just said: (quote) "select a whole class, and invoke the script that sets a specific wallpaper
09:21
<alkisg>
Yes, from the GUI... ?
09:21
<sbalneav>
So, you're talking about scripting anyway.
09:22
<alkisg>
Developers will do the scripts. Teachers will select them from a menu
09:22
<sbalneav>
ok
09:22
so, create a little tool that just allows you to turn on/off things in /etc/X11/Xsession.d
09:23
better still, add that to gnome's session-manager tool.
09:23
i.e. "global session start vs personal session start"
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09:24
<alkisg>
And how will the teacher be able to select only the students from one class?
09:24
Or, only 15 of the students in one class?
09:24
<Silvergti>
hello
09:24
<Ahmuck>
hi Silvergti
09:27
<Silvergti>
question: To compile a module in Thin client kernel, i do "chroot /opt/ltsp/i386" then i follow the README from the manufacturer there. Is that correct?
09:28
<sbalneav>
alkisg: Well, I'd say that the by class thing would be the script (i.e. I'm assuming classes would be in a group)
09:29
But whatever, All I'm saying is, you're going to find a lot better traction by adding on to something that's already there, rather than coming up with a whole new tool.
09:31
<alkisg>
sbalneav: the basic thing I need is: sort users based on "xyz" (maybe group), select some users with the mouse, and go to a dynamically constructed menu and invoke a script for them. The tool (AFAIK) that's closer to that is users-admin. Do you think there's any chance to get modifications such as these accepted upstream?
09:33
<sbalneav>
I don't see why not
09:34
Seems like it would be a handy feature that lots of people could make use of.
09:34
<alkisg>
Thanks!!! I wouldn't have even tried it! I'll start based on the users-admin code, and see where that leads.
09:35
<stgraber>
warren: fine with tagging ltsp-trunk now or do you have more tests to do ?
09:35
<sbalneav>
And it saves you having to do all the work of: reading in the user list, presenting a box, managing the selection of users, etc etc etc.
09:36
<alkisg>
...and most importantly, reading a bunch of how-to's for linux newbie coders... :)
09:36
<sbalneav>
First think I'd do is, find out the author/s of users-admin, and email them with the idea. See what they say.
09:37
If they say "fan-friggin-tastic" then you're golden.
09:37
<alkisg>
I think I did that some months ago, for a different idea, and got no response... I'll try again.
09:37
<sbalneav>
Also, try stopping by #gnome-dev or whatever their devel channel is.
09:38
<alkisg>
Right... thanks, I'm on to it
09:38
<sbalneav>
If you can get the right people interested/involved, you may find you not only get your patches accepted, but get an ally or two who will activly take your idea farther than you could have.
09:39
And if nobody gives a poop, THEN you can fall back on "do it all myself" :)
09:39
<alkisg>
Hmmm.... that's a good plan! :)
09:41
<sbalneav>
Coding's fun, and beleive me, I've done a 100 things where I start coding first and start talking to people after. Everytime I's made the effort to start the dialogue *FIRST*, the coding work either reduced significantly and/or disappeared, and my ideas got adopted WAY faster.
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09:41
<sbalneav>
just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
09:41
brb, workping
09:42
<alkisg>
sbalneav: thanks for your words of wisdom, much appreciated! ;)
09:43
<rjune_>
alkisg: that's why we keep the old guy around, he knows a lot
09:43* rjune_ ducks
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09:55
<cliebow>
sbalneav:thanks for your works of wisdom as well..
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10:00
<sbalneav>
What, I'm "the old guy" now? :)
10:00* sbalneav wistfully remembers when he was "the young punk"
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10:05
<_UsUrPeR_>
ok, when using ltsp-build-client, is there a way to keep it from checking the internet for newer packages?
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10:08
<sbalneav>
You building from CD?
10:10
<_UsUrPeR_>
sbalneav: correct
10:10
<sbalneav>
Hm, not sure.
10:11
<_UsUrPeR_>
F10, btw
10:11
<sbalneav>
Warrenmeister would know
10:11
I'm not up on yummy
10:11
<_UsUrPeR_>
yeah, I'm hoping he will be in today
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10:41
<warren>
johnny: shit you were right
10:41
[root@newcaprica ltsp]# rpm -Uvh ltsp-server-5.1.40-3.20081218.23.fc10.x86_64.rpm
10:41
rpmdb: Thread/process 11940/140581175060208 failed: Thread died in Berkeley DB library
10:41
rpmdb: Thread/process 11940/140581175060208 failed: Thread died in Berkeley DB library
10:41
Preparing... ########################################### [100%]
10:41
1:ltsp-server ########################################### [100%]
10:41
and it got stuck
10:44
Gadi: X_DEVICE_OPTION_01="\"UseFBDev\" \"true\""
10:44
Gadi: is this the correct syntax?
10:44
<superbockster>
ok guys, Fedora 10 has "issues" with the VIA openchrome driver . Got the mouse cursor to show up with FC9
10:55
<johnny>
warren, weird huh
10:58
<warren>
johnny: we must have got hit by the same thing
11:04
<johnny>
warren, lemme know how/if you get this fixed
11:14CAN-o-SPAM has joined #ltsp
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11:33
<dmaran>
Ok guys, I am feeling quite dumb. I am trying to get _any_ localdevice to work in ltsp5(ubuntu 8-4) I have enabled local devs in lts.conf {LOCALDEV = true} It is seen in VT1 using lsusb and fdisk -l. But not on the terminals
11:33
ideas?
11:34CAN-o-SPAM has quit IRC
11:36
<sbalneav>
dmaran: Added your users to the fuse group?
11:41
<dmaran>
looking at /etc/group looks like my account is all screwed up. D**n it....
11:45
I really wish some decision would be made in regards to the consolekit for authentication debate. Not being able to use the unlock button/GUI in this situation is a pain...
11:46* dmaran will be right back after the reboot.
11:46dmaran has left #ltsp
11:48
<Gadi>
warren: looks good
11:48
<sbalneav>
Use LDAP, and add users with handcrafted local scripts, personally, I never use the guis
11:48dmaran has joined #ltsp
11:48
<Gadi>
gotta run
11:48Gadi has left #ltsp
11:53
<dmaran>
sbalneav: Thanks that solved it.... I wondered what was up. Now I need to find out how /etc/group got skewered.
11:54
<sbalneav>
dmaran: NP, personally, I use LDAP with scripts for handling group + users, and if I have to change /etc/groups, I find vi always does what I want :)
11:58
<rjune_>
!seen ogra
11:58
<ltspbot`>
rjune_: ogra was last seen in #ltsp 1 day, 2 hours, 22 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <ogra> then have a look at /etc/X11/xorg.conf
11:58
<dmaran>
´╗┐sbalneav: I use vi too, but the odd thing was that I was only in the adm and admin groups
11:58
:-/
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12:49
<stgraber>
warren: around ?
12:50
<johnny>
warren, did you fixbreak it yet? :)
12:51
<stgraber>
I just had a look at that last ldm rc.d script that starts the user session, in some cases I'd like to be able to pass some more environment variables to the application server. Any objection to making CLIENT_ENV contain more than one environment variable ?
12:52
basically what I'd like to do is in X99-run-x-session having CLIENT_ENV="$CLIENT_ENV LTSP_CLIENT=$LDMINFO_IPADDR"
12:52
<johnny>
uggh.. dealing with all this stuff in env vars is taxing..
12:52
especially if you can't use bashisms . :(
12:53
<stgraber>
johnny: you don't really have the choice if you need to set SKIP_CHECKS or PRINTER as those need to be set before the gnome session opens
12:53
<johnny>
i know
12:53
doesn't make it not suck
12:55mistik1 has joined #ltsp
12:55
<stgraber>
so other the fact that it's ugly and the gnome/kde shouldn't rely on env variables, anything against that change ?
12:57
<warren>
johnny: what?
12:57
<johnny>
WHAT!
12:57
did you make the rpm problem go away?
12:57
<warren>
johnny: kill all processes -9 that are using rpmdb
12:57
johnny: rm -f /var/lib/rpm/__db*
12:58
<johnny>
aha
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13:02
<bogomolov>
some1 can help with debian lenny + pam_mount + cifs + samba server issue?
13:03
*hellow every1 first ;)
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13:04
<stgraber>
warren: Are you gonna tag in the next 30 mins ? otherwise I'll tag a new ldm and ltsp
13:05
<Gadi>
stgraber: did the new screen-session.d stuff work for you?
13:05
i mean with ur additional hacks
13:06* Gadi assumes yes do to the tagging qu
13:06
<warren>
stgraber: just go ahead
13:06
stgraber: our procedure is designed to just tag whenever anyone wants to relesae
13:07
<stgraber>
warren: ok
13:07
Gadi: haven't had a chance to really test it yet, but on paper it looks good :)
13:11
<warren>
stgraber: did you already tag? I have one minor change
13:11
<stgraber>
warren: I tagged ldm-trunk
13:11
but not ltsp-trunk (yet)
13:13
<warren>
hmm
13:13
what is the impact of that ldm change
13:13Gadi_eeepc has joined #ltsp
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13:13
<stgraber>
nothing unless you have another X* rc.d script setting CLIENT_ENV
13:14
if you do, you'll be able to set some more env variables in the user session (in our case to set the default printer and disable the compiz auto-detection)
13:15
<warren>
i'm adding a tiny cange to ltsp-trunk now
13:15
<stgraber>
ok
13:16
<Gadi_eeepc>
nubae: ping
13:16
<warren>
stgraber: grr... the change is too invasive to do without testing, just go ahead and tag
13:16
<stgraber>
warren: what change is that ?
13:17
<warren>
stgraber: Fedora specific
13:17
<stgraber>
ok
13:19
<Gadi_eeepc>
hey warren - does fedora have an easy way to turn yum's cache into a local repository for other computers within an organiation?
13:22
brb
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13:31
<warren>
Gadi_eeepc: yes, but it is stupid to do it on the client side
13:31
<Gadi_eeepc>
?
13:32
<warren>
Gadi_eeepc: you are better off setting up a squid reverse proxy to concentrate all yum clients through the same cache. Run squid on port 80 on that IP address (could be a private address), and give it a domain name that resolves in DNS. Then go to Fedora MirrorManager and setup a site-local mirror. Then all yum clients in that network will automatically use that cache server, and the cache needs no manual intervention ever since it is squid.
13:33
<Gadi_eeepc>
ah
13:33
<warren>
there are some special rules you need in squid.conf
13:34
Gadi_eeepc: mirrormanager will give the site-local mirror as primary, and random mirrors in your region as fallbacks if your server went down.
13:41
hmmm
13:41
since we switched to all these shell scripts
13:41
things are noisy again
13:41
lots of text before and after X runs
13:41
I silenced all this before
13:42
<vagrantc>
stgraber: ltsp-trunk 1040 looks a little funny :P
13:42
<stgraber>
vagrantc: ah, what did I do ?
13:42
<warren>
stgraber: bzr viz
13:42
<stgraber>
doh, I did it again ...
13:43
<vagrantc>
stgraber: the commit message says 5.1.40, but the commit is for version 5.1.41
13:43
<stgraber>
yeah, I really should stop copy/pasting
13:45* stgraber wonders if he shouldn't just add a release option to mkdst :)
13:45
<Gadi_eeepc>
warren: do you know where the text is from?
13:45
<stgraber>
that'd either edit configure.ac or release.conf, commit the new version, tag and generate the .tar.*
13:45
<Gadi_eeepc>
is it ldm or our screen-session scripts?
13:47
<stgraber>
I think I saw some X messages recently too but I was debugging screen-session so was actually happy to have them :)
13:47
but yeah if there are some remaining (or back) we should get rid of them
13:48
<warren>
Gadi_eeepc: what message?
13:49
Gadi_eeepc: oh
13:49
<vagrantc>
warren: that's the question, yes. :)
13:49
<warren>
Gadi_eeepc: stuff like swap
13:49* warren looks again
13:49
<Gadi_eeepc>
swap?
13:49
hmm...
13:49
<warren>
do you enable nbd swap?
13:49
it is noisy now
13:49juliannojungle has joined #LTSP
13:49
<Gadi_eeepc>
what did we change wrt swap?
13:50
<vagrantc>
warren: what sort of noise?
13:51
i can't see anything in recent changes that would have actually make nbd swap more noisy.
13:51
warren: you sure it's not changes to the underlying nbd stuff?
13:51
<warren>
several things are noisier
13:53
I need it to go slower so I can actually see the messages...
13:53
<juliannojungle>
anyone know how to oi
13:53
sorry ^"'
13:54
^^''
13:56
<Gadi_eeepc>
only when Im drunk
13:56
and even then not that well
13:56
<warren>
taco music
13:56
<Gadi_eeepc>
lol
13:59
<juliannojungle>
anyone know how can i put the local apps to acess the local resources (like webcam and sound)? Local firefox sound in youtube works like a charm (just "ltsp-localapps firefox"), but amsn and skype cant find any audio device neither the webcam... Running amsn or skype as server process (not local apps) i can get sound using "padsp amsn" or "padsp skype" (skype oss version), but not webcam. Using padsp in local apps doesnt works too...
14:00
<Gadi_eeepc>
is padsp in the chroot?
14:00
<juliannojungle>
... well, no ^^"
14:01
<Gadi_eeepc>
sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get install pulseaudio-utils
14:01
sudo ltsp-update-image
14:01
<juliannojungle>
i tried only "ltsp-localapps amsn" and it doesnt find any audio or webcam device
14:01
<Gadi_eeepc>
then, you should be able to use padsp
14:02
hmm
14:02
dunno much about either
14:02
but pulseaudio runs on the client
14:03
running through padsp sounds like a good start
14:03
<juliannojungle>
ok, thanks a lot
14:03
im trying it right now
14:04
back soon
14:04
:)
14:04dmaran has left #ltsp
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14:30
<warren>
Gadi: amsn outputs OSS only?
14:31
Gadi: padsp is only for OSS emulation
14:34bobby_C has joined #ltsp
14:35
<Gadi>
"Running amsn or skype as server process (not local apps) i can get sound using "padsp amsn" or "padsp skype" (skype oss version), "
14:35
whats good for the goose....
14:38
<juliannojungle>
well, if i run amsn without padsp it does not get any sound
14:38
i just updated the image with padsp to try ltsp-localapps padsp amsn
14:39
ill back soon, ill just restart the client
14:39
and try
14:39
<Gadi>
in these troubled economic times, some apps may still write to /dev/dsp
14:39
sad, I know
14:40* Gadi thinks the pulseaudio website has a page devoted to such causes
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14:42
<juliannojungle>
yeah, and thats just the problem i see now. Amsn could'nt gain acess to /dev/dsp for writing
14:42
but it was when i run only "ltsp-localapps amsn"
14:42
<Gadi>
right
14:43
padsp gives it a /dev/dsp
14:43
;)
14:43
<johnny>
isn't amsn dead?
14:43
<juliannojungle>
"ltsp-localapps padsp amsn" does nothing
14:43
<johnny>
or am i thinking of another program..
14:43
<Gadi>
does nothing?
14:43
ie does not launch an app?
14:43
<juliannojungle>
yeah, u r thinking of another program ;)
14:43
yeap, does anything
14:43
<johnny>
glad i never have to deal with msn
14:44
all my peeps are happy enough with pidgin
14:44
no need for msn specific programs here
14:44
<juliannojungle>
i tryied in terminal and creating a launcher
14:44
<Gadi>
juliannojungle: try with full paths
14:44
<juliannojungle>
hummm, ill try
14:44
<Gadi>
ie: localapps-ltsp /usr/bin/padsp /usr/bin/amsn
14:44
<juliannojungle>
ok, doing it
14:44
back soon
14:45
<vagrantc>
juliannojungle: ltsp-localapps "padsp amsn"
14:45
the quotes are significant
14:45
ltsp-localapps only takes a single argument
14:46
<Gadi>
ah
14:46
<juliannojungle>
humm that's new to me
14:46
full paths does nothing too
14:47
ill try the quotes
14:47
<vagrantc>
although, probably no reason really to take a single argument only...
14:48
<juliannojungle>
gotcha!!
14:48
it works with quotes
14:49
i can get sound normaly in amsn, thanks a lot
14:49
<Gadi>
yeah - why do we do it that way?
14:49
<vagrantc>
it's just an example script anyways... :)
14:49
<juliannojungle>
now i only stops at webcam problem
14:50
yeah, an example that works like an charm ^^
14:50
<Gadi>
juliannojungle: webcam needs v4l iirc
14:50
not sure what v4l needs
14:50
or is it v4l2
14:50
something like that
14:50
and on ubuntu, I think the user needs to be in the right group
14:50
<juliannojungle>
sorryyyyyy, but i have no idea in what are u talking about
14:50
<vagrantc>
juliannojungle: what's with all the ^ ? :)
14:50
<juliannojungle>
:((
14:50
<Gadi>
to be able to use the device
14:52
crap - its late - i gotta run
14:52
juliannojungle: do a search for getting skype video to work on ubuntu
14:53
and find the results from before it was "out of the box"
14:53
;)
14:53
<juliannojungle>
yeap, i searched it
14:54
vagrantc, the ^^ is a happy face, lol
14:54
two eyes
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14:56
<juliannojungle>
well, actualy the problem is not get the skype/amsn video to work on ubuntu, in server its working. I just cant put it to work at thin clients. Neither when the apps are running locally
14:57
any clue?
14:57
<vagrantc>
you've got routing set up for the thin clients?
14:57
<juliannojungle>
yeap
14:58
<vagrantc>
it's just sound that's not working?
14:58
<juliannojungle>
i have a wi-fi connection at server shared with the clients
14:58
no, the sound now is ok with padsp inside the chroot
14:58
the webcam is the problem
14:59
<vagrantc>
ah.
14:59
clueless with that
14:59
<juliannojungle>
damn it
15:00spectra has quit IRC
15:01
<juliannojungle>
i had the hope that if the amsn/skype runs locally the webcam get woks, but it doesn't, the apps still cant find it
15:02
<johnny>
i have no webcam.. so i cannot help
15:02
perhaps you can send me one.. and i'll get it working :)
15:02
<juliannojungle>
lol :D
15:03
<johnny>
small price to pay..
15:03
<juliannojungle>
sure... xD
15:04
today i felling like a real noob, because im in about 2 months to get webcams working at thin clients and nothing...
15:04
:(
15:05
<johnny>
well. few of us have cams.. so you're kinda on your own
15:07* vagrantc sees dozens of cameras recycled every da
15:07
<vagrantc>
y
15:07
<johnny>
well.. if they are decent.. send me one :)
15:07
i wouldn't mind having a small one i could clip to my laptop
15:07Lns has joined #ltsp
15:07
<johnny>
i didn't have enough money in my account to buy 2 for 12 on woot at the time.. :(
15:08
<vagrantc>
the amount of energy to figure out if they are decent is why they're getting recycled.
15:14
<sbalneav>
vagrantc: Hey, found a home for all my old workstation motherboards, BTW!
15:15
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: ah, cool!
15:15
sbalneav: which vendor?
15:15
<sbalneav>
The University of Manitoba Robotics department aparently LOVES them
15:15
<jammcq>
Scotty !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:15
<vagrantc>
nice!
15:15
<sbalneav>
Hey hey hey jammcq!
15:15
<vagrantc>
sbalneav: what do they do with them?
15:15
<sbalneav>
So my old workstations are going to be part of Robots!
15:15
<vagrantc>
wacky
15:16
<sbalneav>
They convert those big-assed RC cars you can buy, put cell phones with cameras whihc they use for video "seeing" on 'em, and put the ITX mobos on 'em for "thinking"
15:16
It's friggin awesome
15:17
Oh, Greg my cow-orker put a video on the innurnet about it when we went to visit 'em. Hold on.
15:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EV11cIRH6Y
15:18* vagrantc imagines LTSP powering these crazy robots
15:19
<vagrantc>
of course, they'll be bothering us about wireless LTSP, i suspect
15:20
<jammcq>
scotty, looks like it's having an epeliptic fit
15:24
<Lns>
sbalneav: I wish i could bend my legs backward like that!
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15:59
<Tzimmo>
Hello. Tried to make nfsroot readonly debian lenny. Failed. Tried to make nfsroot readwrite debian lenny. Almost succeeded. The problem is that for some reason lockd is not started and nfsmounts, except the root mount, don't work. statd does not start properly. What could cause lockd thread not being started in kernel?
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16:32
<vagrantc>
Tzimmo: what are you trying to do?
16:39
<Tzimmo>
debootstrap into a directory
16:39
pxeboot a client from there
16:40
preferably with a read-only nfsroot so that multiple clients could share the same data
16:40
read-write mount home directoryies
16:41
I'm just trying also both drbl and ltsp to see if those could be used.
16:42nicoAMG has quit IRC
16:43
<Tzimmo>
basically have like a knoppix, but without the cd
16:43
and ability to have writable home directories perhaps
16:44
<vagrantc>
well, that's basically what ltsp-build-client does...
16:44
<Tzimmo>
I have several computers in several rooms and it would be nice to be able to boot any of them to this standard environment.
16:44
Yes, it's running so I'll see what happens.
16:45
<vagrantc>
but the default behavior will be to log into a server, rather than running applications on the thin-client hardware
16:45
<Tzimmo>
I'd like to use the client hardware.
16:45
The server should be able to be totally read-only.
16:46
<vagrantc>
what do you mean by that?
16:46
i mean, totally read-only ?
16:46
<Tzimmo>
I could have an environment for my daughter so that it always boots as it has been setup and she couldn't mess anything.
16:46
No write access anywhere.
16:46
ramdisk is allowed :)
16:46
But no writing on the server.
16:47
<vagrantc>
how do you install or upgrade packages?
16:47
<Tzimmo>
She doesn't need to install or upgrade anything.
16:47
She'll just use editor and kpaint.
16:48
<vagrantc>
so anyways, basically it sounds like you want a diskless workstation sort of setup.
16:48
<Tzimmo>
Of course it could be nice for me to be able to upgrade packages on the server for example... without messing the server environment itself.
16:48
Server running 64-bit, clients are mostly 32-bit.
16:48
<vagrantc>
which requires some tweaking of the chroot, but that's about it
16:48
<Tzimmo>
Yes, that's basically what I'd like to get.
16:48
<vagrantc>
so use --arch i386
16:48
<Tzimmo>
Yes, running already.
16:48
<vagrantc>
but the default behavior is to log into a server
16:49
<Tzimmo>
Ok. Is it easy to modify after installation?
16:49
Now I'm interested in trying anything to get it working.
16:49
<vagrantc>
it's just a chroot
16:49
<Tzimmo>
I have several chroot setups. They just don't seem to work too well.
16:50
Today I have had a problem with lockd. It just doesn't start.
16:50
<vagrantc>
you might also want to try the --kiosk option
16:50
just to get an idea of the basic setup
16:50
<Tzimmo>
And because of that, statd fails to really start... it just hangs there and the startup script times out.
16:50
<vagrantc>
Tzimmo: how did you create these chroots?
16:50
<Tzimmo>
debootstrap
16:51
copy kernel and initrd under my tftpboot
16:51
booted the thing up, as I wasn't able to install all packages on the server
16:51
installed kde, sudo, linux-image-2.6 etc
16:51
<vagrantc>
sure.
16:52
<Tzimmo>
it boots but nfs mounts do not work unless -o nolock is used
16:52
<vagrantc>
Tzimmo: basically, ltsp-build-client is a wrapper around debootstrap and a bunch of other stuff.
16:52
<Tzimmo>
because statd does not start because lockd has not started
16:52
yes... I have tried to make that other stuff manually but have not been too successful
16:53
<vagrantc>
well, i did it years ago when i created lessdisks, and then re-did it when i switched to ltsp. and then it was done, as far as i was concerned. :)
16:53
<Tzimmo>
I was a bit puzzled about nfsbooted package...
16:54
read some instructions, had to create /mnt/nfsroot but then it somehow assumed to have /mnt/nfsroot/tmp and things like that... and I didn't really understand what that directory was to be used for
16:54
<vagrantc>
yeah, messy.
16:55
<Tzimmo>
Was the nfsroot supposed to be mounted in /mnt/nfsroot and then chroot there or what... having / outside chroot as the initrd or ramdisk or something... didn't figure it out.
16:55
It just didn't work very well.
16:56
<vagrantc>
yeah, there was also diskless, way back when ... but none of those worked very well.
16:56
<Tzimmo>
tried to run debootstrap with --include=linux-image-2.6 for example but it didn't work
16:57
sudo chroot /path aptitude install packagename wasn't always successful
16:57
<vagrantc>
right, debootstrap is a pretty simple script ... adding anything with it isn't recommended.
16:57
<Tzimmo>
I just could't figure out a shell script that would create the nfsroot again reliably.
16:57
How does ltsp install those packages?
16:57
<vagrantc>
well, i've been hacking on ltsp in debian since 2005, and lessdisks before that
16:58
and it works.
16:58
Tzimmo: it uses apt
16:59
some packages need or want /proc mounted inside the chroot when installing ...
16:59
<Tzimmo>
I'd actually like to have similar environments for m68k, ppc, sparc, mips, ... and freebsd and several other OSes as well, including windows, but it seems to be very difficult to install an nfsroot on anything that is of different architecture
16:59
<johnny>
you have to do it on that arch
16:59
<vagrantc>
yes, because you can't chroot to it
16:59
<johnny>
and then copy it over
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16:59
<johnny>
or qemu..
16:59
<Tzimmo>
What I'd like to see was a way to install operating systems without any need to run anything native there, just unpack something and voila... but world isn't like that.
16:59
<johnny>
nope
17:00
except with qemu..
17:00
or something
17:00
full hardware emuation
17:00
<Tzimmo>
yes... I would like to avoid using emulators
17:00
<vagrantc>
but even that's got some issues ... like you could create the chroot environment, but might not be able to install an incompatible kernel, as some subarchitectures can't install other architecture's kernel
17:01
sub-arche's, that is
17:02
<Tzimmo>
yes. in previous attempts trying to create a readonly nfsroot, debian sarge I guess that was, I run into problems like /etc/mtab that had to be writable but a symlink to ramdisk wouldn't do because it was written as mtab.new and moved over on top of the old one... now a few years later things have definitely improved
17:03
<vagrantc>
i've been doing this stuff since woody ...
17:03
<Tzimmo>
I have also had some difficulties with boot loaders... pxelinux has some features that grub is missing and the other way around
17:05
If I wanted to have a menu where I could choose between linux or freebsd and if it times out, it would boot from the default boot device, whatever that was, I just couldn't make it.
17:05
pxegrub does not have a concept of "exit and boot from whatever default you have left"
17:06
freebsd should be booted using its own pxeboot thing (don't remember it's name). that could be loaded by grub, but it wouldn't find the network card anymore after that.
17:07
loader was the thing that should have been loaded but neither pxelinux not pxegrub was able to load it.
17:07
so it was a mess and i had to give up then.
17:09
<vagrantc>
for shame. :)
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17:12
<Tzimmo>
The files in nfsroot are just files. It's quite stupid that "installing" something needs to be so complicated... just having a generic installer that could be used to install any operating system would be nice.
17:12
it could be run under other operating systems and just put the files in place.
17:13
or an operating system where each package was just one file somewhere. containing whatever it needs to contain to run it.
17:14
<vagrantc>
well, a lot of modern operating systems behave differently by enabling or disabling features depending on their installed environments, so that's not as easy as it might sound...
17:14
<Tzimmo>
Why to install a game on your harddisk when you just could copy game.pkg somethere and click on it? and it would just work.
17:15
<vagrantc>
debian packages, for instance, sometimes ask questions when there is no reasonable default behavior for a package, and it needs something configured.
17:15
<Tzimmo>
enabling and disabling features could be an easily editable text file somewhere, your settings saved on your usbstick or something
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17:16* vagrantc wonders what this hypothetical operating system really has to do with LTSP
17:16
<Tzimmo>
yes, some components are tricky
17:16
but I guess most applications could just be "run"
17:19
X-windows? Just autoconfigure and run it. If I want something to be modified, I could have a text file describing my monitor layout in two ascii lines on my usb stick if I wasn't happy with the defaults.
17:20
extracting 1000 small files all over the filesystem is slow and taking full backups of the system is slow because there are 400000 files installed.
17:24
And if I play a game seldom, for example xpilot twice a year, I would be happy just to click on a link to download it from the internet and start the game without any installation.
17:24* vagrantc wonders what this hypothetical operating system really has to do with LTSP
17:25
<Tzimmo>
Yeah, sorry. :)
17:25
It has nothing to do with it. I'm just a dreamer. Maybe I should apply a job at Apple or Google.
17:26
Just waiting LTSP installation to finish :)
17:26
drbl finished already. I'll try to boot it.
17:34
Vrhe http://http.us.debian.org lenny Release
17:34
Vrhe = Eror :)
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17:35
<Tzimmo>
ltsp-client: Riippuvuudet: pulseaudio-esound-compat mutta ei ole merkitty asennettavaksi
17:35
some dependency problem
17:36
is there a way to try to recover if there was for example some temporary problem fetching some packages?
17:36
<vagrantc>
for the most part, no...
17:37
<Tzimmo>
So I should just try again and see after an hour if it works?
17:38
<vagrantc>
might want to use the --mount-package-cache or --copy-package-cache, and then --copy-package-lists options ...
17:40
if your host distro is the same as the one you're using ...
17:40
<Tzimmo>
no
17:40
this is etch x86_64, installing lenny i386
17:41
drbl failed to accept the dhcp...
17:41
Lease of 10.1.1.0 obtained, ...
17:41
I just want DHCP server with server name "drbl" provides me an IP address...
17:41
<vagrantc>
ah, you'll want the ltsp-server* backports, then ...
17:41
<Tzimmo>
DHCP server name now is:
17:42
Only IP address offered by this DHCP server name will be accepted:
17:42
Unable to obtain IP address via wired link [eth0]!
17:42
Hmm... well, I could install etch i386 if that helps anything?
17:42
I don't care much, as long as I get something working.
17:45
<vagrantc>
http://wiki.debian.org/LTSP/Howto/Etch-With-Backports
17:45
you can install the server-side backports, and then install lenny ... that should work fine
17:46
install a lenny ltsp chroot
17:46
that is
17:59
<Tzimmo>
so that means that the ltsp coming with debian etch is too old?
18:00
or would installing etch work?
18:01
I'll try etch
18:06
<vagrantc>
installing etch would probably work fine for your purposes, if you're interested in etch.
18:06
there's a lot of features it's missing, but that's only needed for genuine thin clients, and you're looking to do diskless workstations.
18:06
<Tzimmo>
yes
18:07
hmm, drbl seems to have a fixed root path...
18:07
in addition to requiring a specific server-name
18:10
<vagrantc>
Tzimmo: another option you might consider, if ltsp doesn't work out for you, is debian-live's network boot support
18:19
<Tzimmo>
hmm
18:20
any pointer to that?
18:24
<vagrantc>
irc.debian.org #debian-live
18:25
Tzimmo: and: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive
18:34
<Tzimmo>
drbl instructions are pretty difficult to follow... they refer to step 3a) but this step is not clearly marked.
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19:43
<TheProf>
Hello. I hope everyone is doing well. I hope someone can help me with a server question. I have an LTSP serv (k12ltsp based on FC6) with 3 network cards. I have two rooms with thin clients and I am trying to set it up so that room a goes into NIC A and room B goes into NIC B (NIC C is the internet)
19:44
The system works fine with one room. I made the changes to the /etc/hosts and /etc/hdcpd-k12ltsp.conf file
19:44
the thin client boots, finds the DHCP server, and hangs at the 'loading 192.168.4.254:/lts/vmlinuz.ltsp
19:45
(one NIC is 192.168.0.X the other is 192.168.4.X)
19:45
What do you recommend to resolve this? Thanks
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19:48
<warren>
TheProf: the fix is complicated... there is a much easier solution if you use K12Linux instead
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19:48
<warren>
TheProf: in K12Linux you just attach an arbitrary number of real eth interfaces to the ltspbr0 bridge and they just work
19:49
TheProf: I'm building a new Fedora 10 based installer for it right now
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20:39
<TheProf>
warren, sorry I had stepped away from the computer
20:40
just reading what you wrote.
20:40
OK but I can't switch the system now
20:41
<warren>
examine how K12Linux does it, it can be adapted to work on the old distros
20:41
but I can't walk you through it
20:42
<TheProf>
Sure ok. I was under the impression that it was a result of setting up the hosts and dhcpd files appropriately within this framework
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23:29* johnny tests richard's service pack creator
23:31
<warren>
pscheie: I'm setting up my workstation to generate daily k12linux images in cron
23:32
<johnny>
not quite sure about his syntax tho