IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 8 May 2008   (all times are UTC)

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00:26
<jblack>
So, I'm having a rough night with ltsp.
00:27
I've tried upgrading from gutsy to hardy twice now, and both times, ltsp breaks. I'm about done for the night, but I'd love some suggestions for what to look at tomorrow.
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00:28
<johnny>
?
00:28
did you rebuild the chroot after upgrading?
00:28
<jblack>
My symptoms are rather vague... the splashscreen comes up, but the login manager (gdm, I presume) never does. Instead, the monitor acts as if it's beign suspended. I have tried editing the lts.conf in the ftpboot dir.
00:28
<johnny>
it's ldm..
00:28
you must rebuild the chroot
00:28
i found that out myself
00:28
<jblack>
Tonights latest attempt was a fresh install of a hardy system, and installing most everything under the sun.
00:28
<johnny>
oh
00:29
<jblack>
Yeah. I created a fresh image and such
00:29
<johnny>
well.. if you're not going to have time to sit in front of it to debug it.. you should prolly just come back tomorrow
00:29
it'll be easier that way
00:29
cuz it'll involve some poking and prodding
00:29
<jblack>
I have the time. The guy that's in washington flipping the switch on the thin client is out. =)
00:29
<johnny>
lol
00:30
you should make a local setup
00:30
install virtualbox
00:30
and then use another virtualbox vm to install a client
00:30
<jblack>
I just don't have the hardware here.
00:30
<johnny>
that's how i test :)
00:30
i use virtualbox vm as a client for easy easy easy testing
00:30
<jblack>
I even had him hook up another monitor, in case it was bad sync rates.
00:31
<johnny>
you should try what i said
00:31
<jblack>
the client is booting up well enough that he can apt-get install ssh-server, and i can poke at the client.
00:31
<johnny>
it'll make your life much easier :)
00:31
did you check /var/log/ldm.log on the client?
00:31* johnny guesses not.. :)
00:31
<jblack>
I tried the equivilant of running the thin client from here once, and it took 35 minutes to get the full desktop.
00:32
I didn't see a ldm.log, but you can bet I'll be looking at it tomorrow.
00:34
<MacIver>
i'm guessing you didn't change the flux capacitor
00:34
<jblack>
now that you mention it...
00:34
<johnny>
jblack, that's why you should try what i said
00:34
install hardy in a vm
00:34
and then use another vm to boot off of it
00:35
only thing it can't do is hardware.. and that is usually NOT the problem..
00:35
altho it certain can be..
00:35
but at least you'll know
00:35
and you can twiddle it without moving :)
00:36
<jblack>
I'm pretty certain it's a configuration issue on the ltsp server.
00:36
<johnny>
thus why you should do what i suggest :)
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00:36
<jblack>
you did catch the "35 minutes to start" that I mentioned a bit ago?
00:36
I'm in Pennsylvania. The server is in Spokane, Washington
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00:37
<johnny>
it won't if you do what i said
00:37
install hardy in vm locally
00:37
on YOUR computer
00:37
then set up one more vm
00:37
<jblack>
I wish I could, but I don't have the resources here to do it
00:37
<johnny>
that just netboots
00:37
why not?
00:37
you have a computer
00:37
your'e using it right now :)
00:37
<MacIver>
iphone
00:37
<johnny>
even the iphone might be able to lol.. in the future :)
00:38
<jblack>
I'm lacking the memory, processor and disk space to pull it off usefully.
00:38
<MacIver>
lol
00:38
<johnny>
how much memory?
00:38
<jblack>
ANyways, that's one wonderful suggestion.
00:38
<johnny>
disk space is just like 3 ..
00:38
3 gb
00:38
<jblack>
Great. Can you loan me about 2.6 gigs?
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00:38
<johnny>
delete some crap :)
00:38
<jblack>
ANyways, thanks for the suggestion.
00:39
<MacIver>
500 GB drive for 30-60$
00:39
<jblack>
Your two... the ldm.conf, and trying to perform a local install.
00:39
<johnny>
it'll save your hours of time.. which i assume is worth the upgrade
00:39
well you could do a local install.. if you're running hardy
00:39
and then the vm only needs 0 disk space..
00:39
<jblack>
pardon, looking for the ldm log on the client.
00:39
Any other suggestions?
00:39
<johnny>
and 128mb memory
00:40
can't really make any more until you do that
00:40
it's a poking and prodding process
00:40
<MacIver>
ltsp-update-reflux
00:40
<johnny>
check this.. check that, etc
00:40
<jblack>
Dude, I appreciate the help, but get out of this rut. I'm not changing my laptop from gutsy to hardy to install xen to make a fake pxeboot machine to test ltsp 3000 miles from where the problem is.
00:41
Don't get me wrong, thanks for the help, but saying the same thing a 12th time isn't going to help more than the 2nd time you said it. =)
00:41
<johnny>
xen is too difficult ..
00:41
<MacIver>
why not?
00:41
<johnny>
virtualbox is all point and click
00:41
jblack, the only actual suggestion i have is for you to check the ldm.log and xorg log
00:42
that's all there is
00:42
utnil you see what they say
00:42
<jblack>
Yeah. I looked at the xorg.log. I couldn't find anything useful. The impression it gave me was that the card was driving a modeline that the monitor couldn't handle.
00:43
<johnny>
that's often not an error
00:43
i see that all the time
00:46
<jblack>
what? An xorg upgrade results in new frequencies being supported, thus resulting in a non-syncable display?
00:46
<johnny>
seeing it try modelines..
00:46
and fail
00:46
before it settles on a good one
00:47
<jblack>
Oh, I didn't see it try a bunch of modelines in the xorg log. I'm not even convinced the lts.conf in tftpbook/ltsp is being used.
00:47
The only indication I have that something is going on is that he reported the lcd light changing color
00:48
splash screen, monitor light changes color, but ctrl-alt-f1 to get a console works
00:48
he's not even seeing the X checkerboard.
00:49
<johnny>
mine doesn't work in tftpboot directory.. but it seems like a dnsmasq issue
00:49
i don't use the standard dhcpd setup
00:49
<jblack>
uhhh. hmmmmm
00:50
root-path "/opt/ltsp/i386 filename "/ltsp/i386/pxelinux.0"
00:50
that looks like a problem to me
00:50
<johnny>
root-path is only used by nfs
00:50
hardy doesn't use nfs by default
00:50
the filename is really a concern to your tftp server anyways
00:51
<jblack>
I figured that may be the base path that lts.conf is loaded from.
00:51
<johnny>
no
00:51
it is not
00:51
<jblack>
The more intersting one is filename. this system doesn't have a /ltsp, but an /opt/ltsp
00:51
<johnny>
that's based on the tftp root
00:52
it's a path from /var/lib/tftpboot
00:52
<jblack>
Ok. Sensible.
00:52
Maybe it's something simple, like "ltsp works on xen in gutsy, but not hardy"
00:53
or "2.6.24-16 is broken"
00:53
<johnny>
you're using ltsp in xen ?
00:53
i never tried that
00:53
don't see why it would be an issue tho
00:53
<jblack>
the server is on xen, yes.
00:53
<johnny>
if you have made it so far in the boot process
00:54
<jblack>
Yeah. He can even apt-get install ssh-server on the client once he drops down to tty1
00:54
<johnny>
you could install it in the chroot and rebuild the image
00:54
so you don't have to keep reinstalling it eveyrtime
00:54
<jblack>
Yup, I'm aware.
00:56
I don't suppose there's some good logging on the ltsp server that I can review.. I couldn't find much of anything, other than somethign called ldminfod
00:56
<johnny>
your problem is mostly likely with x.. and that doesn't log remotely
00:57
<jblack>
But it could be a ltsp/xen relationship issue... xen is kind of quirky when it comes to tty setup
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01:10
<jblack>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+bug/224901/ might be my bug
01:11
<johnny>
you would have had an issue earlier
01:11
wouldn't you have noticed ltsp-build-client failed?
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01:12
<jblack>
I noticed various warnings on build-client. I fixed several of them by hand
01:12
<johnny>
hmm.. iregenerated my chroot for hardy recently.. all seems well
01:13
<jblack>
This was reported 4-30 (but was a duplicate of one on 4-25)
01:14
I don't remember seeing an outright failure at the end.
01:15
<johnny>
then it is probably not the same bug
01:15
the only thing i had to do was fix the expired root account
01:15
which is a registered bug
01:16
<jblack>
I'm doing a rebuild ow.
01:16
yeah, I fixed that one by hand too. :)
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01:17
<jblack>
in fact, I still have the shadow manpage up
01:21
Nope. Just debconf warnings and some font complaints.
01:21
And an expired root account, but no Big Explosion
01:25
It would help if I could run an xserver on the ltsp server. =)
01:26
<johnny>
my ltsp server is at a coffeehouse..
01:26
and is also the point of sale machine
01:27
<jblack>
Nice.
01:27
<johnny>
custom open source software
01:29
<jblack>
Quick question... he should have been able to run "X" on the client, and get the checkboard, no?
01:29
<johnny>
yes
01:30
<jblack>
Then that narrows it down considerably
01:30
He didn't get a checkerboard when I ran X on him.
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01:41
<generic>
hey guys
01:41
i have installed SAP gui on ubuntu now i want to make a link on each user destop how i can do this?
01:41
<jblack>
Ok. so, thinking about it, I think 2 things are happening. Firstly, X --configure is reporting modelines that the monitor can't handle, that are different than gutsy, and second, that /var/lib.../i386/lts.conf is being ignored.
01:41
<generic>
a soft link
01:41
<jblack>
That's presuming he didn't manage to lay his hands on two lcd monitors that can't drive at 800x600
01:44
the former is sensible; via chipsets are probably much less common.
01:44
The latter... <shrug?>
01:45
The documentation I read earlier wasn't clear. what if there's a lts.conf in /var/.../i386 and in the pxeboot image? Which one takes precidence?
01:47
If it's the latter, than a well meaning person disabled the /var one on hardy by adding a lts.conf file in the image's etc directory that says "This one works, but don't use it".
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01:52
<jblack>
I'll be happy to check the sources if someone can tell me what parses lts.conf
01:53
<johnny>
the ltsp-client init scripts in the chroot
01:53
the one in the tftproot should take precedence
01:54
<jblack>
I'll double check
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02:00
<jblack>
interesting. a "grep -r lts.conf /opt/ltsp/i386/etc" lists only one file that contains lts.conf, and that's lts.conf itself.
02:00* jblack looks in boot
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02:01
<johnny>
yeah.. it's empty
02:01
with a comment
02:01
to tell you that you should use tfpboot directory :)
02:01
<jblack>
COrrect.
02:02
However, I think the one int tftpboot is being ignored, thus wanting to double check that the precence as listed in the chrooted one is correct.
02:02
I can't find what in /etc actually parses either one. ;)
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02:04
<jblack>
Ok. This is _very_ interesting.
02:05
gdm in the ltsp _server_ matches a grep for lts.conf. The gdm in the ltsp _client_ does not
02:06
then again, there is no gdm in the chroot, at least not in usr/sbin
02:09
Yeah. I believe that lts.conf, at least as of hardy, ignores lts.conf
02:10
<johnny>
ldm
02:10
it's not gdm
02:11
gdm is not used in ltsp
02:11
<jblack>
I did a grep on /usr/sbin, within the chroot
02:11
What I found was that ldm does not reference lts.conf, but gdm does.
02:12
<johnny>
the file that reads in the lts.conf is in the initramfs
02:12
<jblack>
try it. on your ltsp server, cd into /usr/sbin, and grep lts.conf *. gdm will pop right up. No such luck on ldm.conf
02:12
pardon, for ldm.
02:12
<johnny>
ldm does not read lts.conf
02:12
<jblack>
Ok. I'll check the initrd then
02:12
<johnny>
it takes environmentable variables
02:13
that are passed to it
02:13
via the screen-x-common script that ltsp uses
02:16
<jblack>
My ltsp server doesn't have initrds at all. do you mean the i386.img squashfs image?
02:17
<johnny>
no
02:17
i'm talking about in /var/lig/tftpboot/ltsp/chrootarch
02:17
<jblack>
I forgot about those
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02:21
<jblack>
Ok. No.
02:21
THey're ignored
02:23
I have no screen-x-common anywhere. I even unpacked the initrds. and the only thing I can find within the chroot, or files used to boot the chroot, that reference lts.conf is lts.conf itself.
02:23
<johnny>
screen-x-common is in the chroot
02:24
only the tftping of lts.conf is done in the initrd
02:24
and the nbd mounting
02:24
<jblack>
Not here it's not.
02:24
<johnny>
hmm.. should be
02:24
lemme look in my server
02:24
<jblack>
I'm telling you. I went through the chroot, it's not there. I loopback mounted the img, it's not there. I even ran the initrd through cpio to get at the contents, and it's not there either
02:26
of course, by there, I mean here.
02:26
<johnny>
Binary file i matches
02:26
scripts/ltsp_nbd: # get the lts.conf via tftp
02:26
scripts/ltsp_nbd: (echo "get ${tftpath}/lts.conf"|tftp ${ROOTSERVER} >/dev/null 2>&1)
02:26
scripts/ltsp_nbd: if [ -s ./lts.conf ];then
02:26
scripts/ltsp_nbd: cp ./lts.conf ${rootmnt}/etc/
02:26
oh.. here's the command
02:26
root@emma:/var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/test# grep -r 'lts\.conf' *
02:29
<jblack>
I see it in ltsp_nbd.com too.
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02:32
<generic>
helo
02:32
<jblack>
Sorry I missed it. I really did look.
02:32
<generic>
guys
02:32
how i make a link
02:32
<jblack>
what kind of link? A symbolic link? (soft link) ?
02:33
<generic>
and how i change nbd to use nfs and not use nbd
02:33
<johnny>
why would you want to do that
02:33
<generic>
ya i install sapgui
02:33
<johnny>
there are instructions on the ubuntu wiki
02:33
for both questions
02:33
<generic>
i like to make a link on my users dektop to use that to lauch sapgui
02:33
<johnny>
but if i was you.. i woulldn't change to nfs
02:33
it's noticably slower
02:33
here
02:34
<generic>
i have some works to do on
02:34
where on ubuntu wiki
02:34
send me link
02:36
<johnny>
sorry..i can't
02:36
but i'm sure you can use a search engine
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02:39
<jblack>
there goes that theory
02:40
<johnny>
?
02:40
<jblack>
The lts.conf being ignored w/ X --configure acting differently between distro releases
02:41
<johnny>
lts.conf isn't even necessary these days.. unless you really need it
02:41
you could try passing your own known working X_CONF
02:41
but i think you should try the ldm log
02:42
and/or starting ldm manually after killing it from the console
02:42
<jblack>
The system worked in gutsy, broke after upgrade to hardy. So I move the image aside, and tried a fresh hardy install
02:42
<johnny>
your issue might not be related to ltsp.. but to other components
02:42
<jblack>
Yeah. I'l try putting a braindead xorg.conf on it tomorrow.
02:43
Yeah. it may
02:43
<johnny>
you could also set CONFIGURE_X=F
02:43
before making an xorg.conf
02:43
in lts.conf
02:43
<jblack>
Yeah, I suppose I should. Otherwise, it'll autoconfigure it away
02:43
<johnny>
well..
02:43
CONFIGURE_X is needed for you to manually set certain X parameters
02:43
<jblack>
What keeps ringing in my ears is him telling me the monitor light changed.. "as it it were going to sleep".
02:44
<johnny>
if you use CONFIGURE_X=F
02:44
it uses x's own built in detection
02:44
which might be more successful for you
02:44
me personally..
02:44
i've been working on the port of ltsp to gentoo
02:44
ltsp5*
02:45
and i forced CONFIGURE_X=F completely atm
02:45
so unlike ubuntu CONFIGURE_X defaults to F
02:45
<dberkholz>
(yay!)
02:45
<johnny>
cuz i could never get X --configure --novtswitch to succeed
02:45
<jblack>
I wonder if CONFIGURE defaulted to F back in gutsy, and switched in hardy
02:45
<johnny>
alwasy get a paln screen
02:45
no.. it didn't
02:46
it's a standard feature of ltsp to be able to set certain x parameters via lts.conf
02:46
with CONFIGURE_X=F you can't set those parameters
02:47
dberkholz, i finally figured out my issue .. or rather agaffney did
02:47
it was really dumb
02:47
i'll spare you the details
02:47
<dberkholz>
issues usually are dumb
02:47
<johnny>
i'm building a fresh one now
02:47
<jblack>
GOtcha.
02:49
<johnny>
xorg's built in detection has grown greatly
02:49
<jblack>
Definitely. I remember the old 3.x days.
02:49
<johnny>
when evdev advances, and better tools are available to manage screen placement via randr... i will never use an xorg.conf again prolly
02:49
<jblack>
Back when x.org didn't exist. =)
02:50
<johnny>
atm sadly i have to.. :(
02:50
but the day when it is unnecessary is on the horizon
02:50
<jblack>
What's throwing me off the tail so easily was that as a gutsy system, things just worked. Moving to hardy, no X on the client.
02:50
<johnny>
well.. i've ran into a few other nasties in hardy myself
02:51
but not that one
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02:51
<jblack>
My first thought was broken migration, so naturally, I set the logical volume aside, and did a fresh install.
02:51
<johnny>
my network driver was totally screwed
02:51
<jblack>
And walked into the same thing.
02:51
<johnny>
it would die eveyr day
02:51
<jblack>
ouch
02:51
<johnny>
at least once..
02:51
killing all ltsp clients
02:51
i reverted to the gutsy kernel, and all is well
02:52
<jblack>
That reminds me of the xen hardy nightmare that I just went through for a month.
02:52
<johnny>
i'm using the b44 driver.. which is really hard to find info for.. run into too much nonsense about wireless driver issues for a similiarly named driver :(
02:52
<jblack>
They broke the netfront driver in 2.2.24, months ago, ignored bugs reports, ignored fixes, etc etc
02:52
<johnny>
i think ignored is wrong
02:52
i just don't think they can handle the load
02:53
<jblack>
Fair enough
02:53
<johnny>
it's really hard to do stable releases at this point for any distro
02:53
too much is changing in the infrastructure of the distros
02:53
in the gnome,kernel, and x realms
02:53
gnome 2.22 had gvfs merged ... but most likely prematurely
02:53
even though it is great
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02:54
<jblack>
Yeah. I used to yell at distro every time we met for throwing the latest crap in. (I used to work there)
02:54
<johnny>
sure.. but if you don't
02:54
nobody will support you
02:54
because they don't run that old stuff
02:54
that's the kinda support you have to pay for
02:54
that's why i upgrade to new ubuntu releases right away
02:54
<jblack>
Your right, of course.
02:54
<johnny>
because in all my other work.. i'm using the new stuff
02:55
as i'm on gentoo
02:55
even if i have to deal with some bugs
02:55
i give it a few days.. if it looks manageable.. i jump in
02:55
<jblack>
For distro, it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't type situation. You're going to get burned either way, all you get to pick is the type of pain
02:55
<johnny>
yep
02:55
yeah.. it's cuz we're still matching parity to other systems at this point
02:56
let a few things catch up..and everything will be fine for awhile :)
02:56
<jblack>
Then again, I think part of the responsibility for that mess falls into sabdfl's lap because of his big push for "daily crack"
02:57
<johnny>
i imagine alot of folks disagree
02:57
<jblack>
Sure, even back before ubuntu was called no-name-yet, the clock was already speeding up.
02:57
<johnny>
sure.. but the ball isnt' in ubuntu's court
02:57
it's in the x and gnome peeps hands
02:58
<jblack>
I don't think the clockhands would be spinning quite so quickly.
02:58
<johnny>
distros are too far out of date for me within 3 months of the release cycle
02:58
err within 3 months post release i mean
02:58
<jblack>
Aspects of it, sure... But consider... If other distros weren't chasing ubuntu's tail... Debian isn't exactly known for high speed, nor were the redhat types... Perhaps gentoo
02:59
<johnny>
debian is too slow :)
02:59
6 month release cycles just arne't long enough.. :)
02:59
<jblack>
That's rather my point. Prior to someone deciding he wanted his own distro, most distros _were_ slow.
02:59
<johnny>
they need to go with 7 and a half..
02:59
that's not been my experience
03:00
but i've only been involved since 98
03:00
<jblack>
And I just a couple years before that.
03:00
<johnny>
i was using redhat then
03:00
<jblack>
But seriously... Fedora? Redhat, Debian? Slackware? Who's the speed demon of that group
03:00
<johnny>
the distros are try to catch up to the actual projects
03:00
the projects themselves are moving faster
03:01
the users drive demand for new stuff
03:01
too many people were compiling their own software to get what they needed
03:01
so distros came about that got you there faster
03:01
etc
03:01
it just needs to settle out first
03:01
<jblack>
I don't think that the majority of users have built their own software.. at least since 2003 or so. And I think that truly slowed development.
03:02
<johnny>
but then they were using somebody else's built software :)
03:02
<jblack>
If 3/4 of your users are complaining about bugs in your last stable, you're going to end up paying more attention to that.
03:02
<johnny>
some random rpm or deb they found
03:02
<jblack>
sure, you're always going to want to work on head, but you'd get anoyed to death if you didn't release a patch for the stable release.
03:03
<johnny>
not all developers have time for that
03:03
<jblack>
True.
03:03
<johnny>
so then the distro maintainers have to make their own
03:03
amongst their normal bug load
03:04
<cyberorg>
that is where https://build.opensuse.org/ come into picture, it builds packages for all top distro and archs from same source tarball
03:04
<johnny>
plus there is a lack of general knowledege sharing .. too much useful information scattered across too many bug systems
03:04
and mailing lists
03:04
it is not scaling
03:04
<jblack>
I don't think having the world live on HEAD is a palatable solution.
03:05
<johnny>
but the world wants the features of HEAD!!!
03:05
becaus they still cant' do certain things they can do on osx or win
03:05
<jblack>
A substatial portion of it. Certainly more than half, but maybe not as much more as you'd expect.
03:05
<johnny>
like group policies in active directory
03:06
in the server realm
03:06
thus.. systems were created to deal with it
03:06
but they are still in development
03:06
<jblack>
I do't know whether you're cheering or lamenting the state of things...
03:06
<johnny>
both
03:06
but more cheering
03:07
70/30
03:07
<jblack>
ANd though I'd like to see a change, I know no such thing will happen...
03:07
<johnny>
change? change is coming
03:07
:)
03:07
<jblack>
but inevitably, down this parth, lies in Windows ironically becoming the more stable operating system.
03:07
<johnny>
i think we will see more useful aggregate info
03:07
which will create more useful communication
03:07
more distros are focusing on committing changes in upstream
03:07
thus sharing out the patch burden
03:08
<jblack>
I don't know about you, but an MRI machine running windows because it's less likely to crash scares the shit out of me.
03:08
<johnny>
we're almost to the point of seeing the fruits of that labor
03:08
<jblack>
Not because they evetnually raise the bar, but because everyone else lowered it too much
03:08
<johnny>
it's still in the adolescent phase
03:08
<jblack>
Yeah. That's somewhere a certain mark should get credit for. He's reaching tightening that coordination up
03:09
<johnny>
don't forget the fedora folks
03:09
stuff is finally happening on that front
03:09
previously redhat projects carried too many patches locally
03:09* ogra humps jblack's leg
03:09
<ogra>
jblack, !!!
03:09
<jblack>
ogra!!!!
03:10* jblack smacks ogra down with a newspaper
03:10
<johnny>
ogra, i'm not tryin to make you look bad :)
03:10
<ogra>
heh
03:10
<jblack>
How is it, my friend?
03:10
<ogra>
all fine :)
03:10
<johnny>
i hope i'm representing things accurately
03:10
<jblack>
johnny: You did fine.
03:10
<ogra>
still doing the same
03:10
<jblack>
still with the company?
03:10
<ogra>
sure
03:10
<jblack>
That's great news.
03:10
<johnny>
you know this crazy guy jblack ?
03:11
lol
03:11
<jblack>
Ogra? Yeah. We've drinks together a few times.
03:11
<johnny>
oopss.. missed a comma there
03:11
<ogra>
johnny, jblack spent me my first drink with ubuntu people ever :)
03:11
<jblack>
I was his biggest cheerleader. :)
03:11
"bought" buddy
03:11
<johnny>
jblack, ogra and i have worked together on a few things
03:11
trying to help him test ubuntu ltsp
03:12
and he also helps me with the gentoo integration
03:12GiantPickle has quit IRC
03:12
<jblack>
heh. every time I see your nick, ogra, I get reminded of Bernd das brot. Don't know why
03:13
<johnny>
ogra.. i'm getting a gigabit nic tomorrow/today
03:13
going to install it in my ltsp server ...
03:13
found out my switch has gigabit uplink
03:13
i didn't buy it.. it was here previously
03:13
<jblack>
ogra: Oh, btw, I think ltsp gutsy->hardy is broken, on at least some system. I'll file a bug about it once I figure it out
03:14
<johnny>
ogra, that gvfs update made hardy proposed right?
03:14
hardy-proposed*
03:14
<ogra>
jblack, haha, every time i see the night trailer on kika i tell my GF hey, i always have to think about jblack when i see that ... she's getting tired of the mataro bar story :)
03:14
<jblack>
I'll check if you like, I owe you one, johnny
03:15
lol
03:15
<johnny>
i'm about to hit the bed
03:15
now that ogra is here :)
03:15
if you hve any questions.. he will be most helpful
03:15
:)
03:15
<ogra>
jblack, you need to rebuild the client chroot, we do way to mny changes at built time that i cnt avoid to get wiped on upgrades
03:15
s/built/build
03:16
<johnny>
ogra, it's possible that all the load on the network card is what caused my issues
03:16
<jblack>
gfgvs 0.2.3-0ubuntu5 is latest available on pro..per.. whatachamacallit
03:16
ogra: Of course.
03:17
<ogra>
well, the gvfs fix is actually hidden in glib :)
03:17
<jblack>
I haven't figured it out quite yet (thus why I haven't filed anything yet), but it's fundamental to break running "X" on the console and getting a checkerboard
03:17
whatever it is, it both breaks after upgrade from gutsy to hardy, and exists on a fresh hardy install too.
03:18
I suspect it's an edge case with via chipsets, but I haven't nailed it down yet
03:18
<johnny>
evil via stuff
03:18
uggh.. sleepytime
03:18
<jblack>
I didn't even know they made video cards.
03:18
<ogra>
hum, i have a via client upstairs that appears to work fine
03:19
<jblack>
oh. hrmm
03:19
<ogra>
what exactly do you mean with checkerboard ?
03:19
<jblack>
Have you ever run X manually? not startx, or gdm, or anything?
03:20
Just "X". Normally, you'll get back and white squares. The higher the resolution, the smaller the squares. Just looks grey on high resolutions.
03:21
<ogra>
sounds like yuo use xdmcp
03:21
<jblack>
ANyways, the xserver is breaking badly enough on the client that X isn't starting at all. The monitor status light is changing colors ,as if it's getting a freq that it can't handle.
03:21
Nope.
03:21
<ogra>
hmm
03:22
<jblack>
Which tells me that X --configure might not be handling the card well. Perhaps it treated it as vesa in gusty, and now it handles it as a via, but it's using a resolution/refresh that's too high for the monitor.
03:23
It could be anything at this point. I haven't even managed to rule out martians.
03:23
<ogra>
create /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp/i386/lts.conf
03:23
add
03:23
[default]
03:23
<jblack>
I just spent an hour and a half (mistakenly) trying to convince poor johnny that lts.conf was being ignored.
03:23
<ogra>
SCREEN_02=shell
03:24
then you get a login shell on tty2
03:24
<jblack>
Oh, there's a login shell on tty1
03:24
<ogra>
for deugging
03:24
there are no users you could log in with
03:24
<jblack>
sure there are.
03:24
<ogra>
the lts.conf option will log you in
03:25
did you create users in the chroot ?
03:25
<jblack>
I edited the image and rewrote it so that root could log in.
03:25
<ogra>
ah
03:25
k
03:25
<jblack>
I even fixed the expired flag someone put in
03:25toscalix has joined #ltsp
03:25
<jblack>
I'm not going to be able to work on it. The clients are something like 3,000 miles away. Litrally
03:25
<ogra>
that not put in deliberately, its how the default is apparetnyl
03:26
<jblack>
The person flipping the switches for me and playing monkey went to sleep
03:26
yeah. I saw the bug on the bts
03:26
and I saw you all over ltsp on the bts too. You're still a frigging machine, man. :)\
03:27
<ogra>
heh, well, i only do ltsp and all edu related stuff in ubuntu :)
03:27
<jblack>
Know what would be nice?
03:28
<ogra>
and with the last release the edu duties dropped a lot, we dont have an edubuntu install CD anymore so i dont have much to care for there
03:28
<jblack>
A ltsp-server package just installs a minimally working X for a headless server providing ltsp. =)
03:28
Yeah, so it'll just be a task from now on?
03:28* jblack goes outside for a smoke
03:28
<ogra>
a metapackage and addon-cd
03:29* ogra joins the smoking
03:32
<jblack>
uch better.
03:32
yeah, a meta package
03:34
<Q-FUNK>
ogra: got any info about Prague, so that I can register and book my hotel?
03:34
<ogra>
wrt via ... there are three drivers you can user with via chipsets (totaly messy situation)
03:34
<jblack>
via, vesa, and?
03:35
<ogra>
via, openchrome and unichrome
03:35
Q-FUNK, http://towers.corinthia.cz/hotel/en/hotel-location/
03:35
<jblack>
four then
03:36
<Q-FUNK>
ogra: that's where everyone is booked? and for registering for the event?
03:36
<ogra>
unichrome is in universe though
03:36
<stgraber>
Q-FUNK: UDS is on LP, FOSSCamp on www.fosscamp.org (if you attend it)
03:36
<jblack>
That's ok. I trust universe fine, because I know you rule there.
03:36
<ogra>
Q-FUNK, https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-intrepid
03:37
jblack, thats long ago, dholbach is the he-man nowadays :)
03:37
<jblack>
Daniel is? He rocks too
03:37
<ogra>
yeah
03:37
and he switched from monarchy to democracy, we have a motu council now :)
03:38
so a bunch of he-mans :)
03:38
jblack, what are *you* doing now ? i didnt ask yet
03:38
<jblack>
Is it organized in about the same way the ubuntu council was when I worked there?
03:38
<ogra>
yeah
03:38
<jblack>
these days, I'm doing a telecommuting sysadmin ting.
03:38
<ogra>
its all split up into smaller councils to handle the immense growth
03:39
<jblack>
xen, drbd, perhaps 20 virtual servers... and ltsp.
03:39
asterisk
03:39
<ogra>
nice !
03:39
i was planning to get audio capturig working in intrepid
03:39
then you can have asterisk ltsp clients in callcenters :)
03:40
<jblack>
Yeah, it's been great so far. They told me what they wanted to do, I told them what I thought they wanted, and they said "sounds good. whatever you think".
03:40
<ogra>
hehe
03:40
<jblack>
So it's a nice little setup, complete with ldap
03:41
<ogra>
so do you get any hints about the X breakage in Xorg.6.log on the client ?
03:42
<Q-FUNK>
ogra: is there any shcedule for UDS? I'm only likely to cone for fosscamp and a couple of days of UDS and I'd preferably attend only embedded and LTSP sessions
03:42
<jblack>
I didn't look at Xorg.6.log. Thought it was cruft, so I looked at Xorg.1.log.
03:42
<ogra>
we stopped relying on dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg with gutsy, it makes everything slow to pull the whole debconf database over the net every thime ...
03:43
well, by default X starts on :6.0 ... if you manually start it on :1.0 then tht log applies indeed
03:43
<jblack>
The I also somehow missed that there was a lts log too. I'm looking forward to getting another look at the client. I'm hoping something obvious shows.
03:44
Ok. The 1 log didn't have anything useful, and looked as if X started just fine.
03:44
<ogra>
yeah, there are only two logs on the client, ldm.log and the Xorg one
03:44
<jblack>
which had me convinced, along with the monitor indicator changing color, that it's putting out a mode that the monitor can't handle.
03:45
<ogra>
you can try ddcprobe or xresprobe to see what the montor tells X about its capabilities
03:45
<jblack>
however, setting XRESOLUTION or whatever down to 800x600 didn't seem to have the expected result. lts.conf seemed ignored.
03:45
<ogra>
X will only pick up what it gets from there
03:45
X_MODE_0=800x600 is the right option
03:46
and the lts.conf sits in the tftp dir nowadays
03:46
<jblack>
Yeah.
03:46
I set it according to documentation Ifound online. It was a few hours ago, so I'm not longer clear about what I set.
03:48
I'll hit it again tomorrow night.
03:49ogra has quit IRC
03:50indradg_ has quit IRC
03:51ogra has joined #ltsp
03:51* ogra curses daily reconnects
03:52
<Q-FUNK>
daily reconnects?
03:52
<ogra>
yeah, once a day my line drops
03:52
common german practice
03:52
<jblack>
heh
04:41
<laga>
very silly, though
04:41
<ogra>
yeah, and i even pay a business line, not the common dsl crap you get here
04:43
<laga>
get a static IP, the disconnects don't matter that much then
04:43
<ogra>
i have a static IP
04:44
<laga>
oh :/
04:44
<ogra>
its still annoying since my builder scripts that upload stuff run ver night i have to make sure the reconnect happens thorugh my business hours
04:45
<laga>
i've got a semi-static IP and no disconnects. although customer support is a bit lacking sometimes, i'm quite satisfied with my cable line ;)
04:46
<ogra>
yeah, cable in .de rocks .... they usually overzize their backbones by design so you rarely get slowdowns or anything
04:50tsurc has joined #ltsp
04:51indradg has joined #ltsp
04:58ace_suares has joined #ltsp
04:59
<ace_suares>
gooood morninggg !
04:59
!seen ogra
04:59
<ltspbot`>
ace_suares: ogra was last seen in #ltsp 12 minutes and 55 seconds ago: <ogra> yeah, cable in .de rocks .... they usually overzize their backbones by design so you rarely get slowdowns or anything
04:59
<ace_suares>
ogra: is that security issue as nasty as I think it is !?
05:00
<ogra>
ace_suares, yes, but its fixed :)
05:00
instructions are in the USN
05:01
http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-610-1
05:01
<ace_suares>
yeah great I just saw that!
05:01
Wow !
05:01
okay, well that's a first, isn't it...
05:01
<ogra>
send your beer or flowers to daduke :)
05:02
<ace_suares>
daduke = chris herzog ?
05:02
yeah. Kudo's daduke !
05:02
<ogra>
noe of the ltsp sevs that regulary looked at the code ever saw it .... and it was relly obvious
05:02
*none
05:02
*devs
05:02
<ace_suares>
that's the many eyes theory
05:02
<ogra>
heh, yeah
05:02
failed here apparently
05:03
<ace_suares>
if enough eyes look at the same code the obvious errors will still get overlooked ;-)
05:03
in the end it didn't fail tough
05:03
<ogra>
well, we have more eyes now with gentoo, opensuse and fedora entering the game
05:03
<ace_suares>
oh ?! Great!
05:07
<tsurc>
hows the best way to go about diagnosing dhcpd weirdness. I've a device on our network that is giving out discovery packets but the dhcpd server isn't offering a lease even though i've configured it to assign a specific ip.
05:08
<ace_suares>
ogra, as far as I understand, an automatic upgrade doesn't do the trick...
05:08
so, should there be another way to alert possible system managers ?
05:08
like on the homepage of edubuntu ?
05:09
just asking.
05:12
<The_Code>
cyberorg: thanks for making this clear
05:13
<cyberorg>
The_Code, hiya
05:13
ogra, meet The_Code our SOC guy working on LTSP GUI
05:13ace_suares has quit IRC
05:14
<The_Code>
cyberorg: what if make the setup of the server a module that can be there, but doesn't need to
05:15
<cyberorg>
The_Code, yeah that would be good, ogra doesn't want to use it, he is more interested in lts.conf management
05:16
<The_Code>
reading documentation i get the impression that everybody makes it in a different way
05:16
so if there is a script, you can install the module and setup your server with the GUI
05:16
if not you can edit your lts.conf
05:16
<cyberorg>
yeah, so the GUI need to call just the scripts
05:17
<The_Code>
what scripts you mean
05:17
<cyberorg>
The_Code, no, lts.conf doesn't have a gui editor yet, and lts.conf is same everywhere
05:18
<The_Code>
if there is no install script you don't install the module for setting up the server
05:18
you can then "only" use LTSP GUI to edit and manage your lts.conf
05:19
<cyberorg>
The_Code, i mean, ltsp-build-client would be there on all distros, ltsp-server-initialize on whoever wants it
05:20
The_Code, we can have SHOW_MODULES = ltsp-build-client ltsp-server-initialize lts-conf-editor in GUI's configuration
05:20
<The_Code>
and ltsp-build-client only builds the chroot stuff?
05:20
<cyberorg>
yes
05:22
<ogra>
hey
05:22
<The_Code>
that's the way we should have it
05:22
ogra: hi
05:22* ogra still doesnt get what ltsp-server-initialize
05:22
<ogra>
shal be
05:23
did you have a look at python-ltsp from ubuntu ?
05:23
<The_Code>
yes i did
05:23
<cyberorg>
ogra, it is fedora equal of kiwi-ltsp-setup -c http://forgeftp.novell.com/kiwi-ltsp/kiwi-ltsp-diagram.png
05:23
<ogra>
its a module that collects all possible options in a chroo so you get value lists to feed to optins
05:23
its slightly unmaintained though
05:24
<The_Code>
a little bit more documentation would have made it easier to understand, but i got it
05:24
<cyberorg>
i am sure warren would not be changing the name, so i'll have a wrapper that calls kiwi-ltsp-setup -c :)
05:24
<The_Code>
and i think it will help me a lot
05:25
<ogra>
The_Code, its fully documented in the python help
05:25
but it needs love
05:25
for sure
05:25
i didnt touch it since over a year and surly a lot has changed so it will need adjustment
05:25
<The_Code>
sorry, but i only opened the .py file
05:25
<ogra>
cyberorg, in deban and ubuntu we wont use something else than the distro provided tools we have already
05:26
i.e. i will never accept any extra feature in ltsp-manager that manages interfaces
05:26
<cyberorg>
ogra, yeah, so we make it modular and let the distro choose to not use that module
05:26
<ogra>
rather have a button that starts the respectve distro tool for maintining such stuff
05:27
all *i* need in ubuntu is an lts.conf editor .... the other distros might have different needs
05:28
<The_Code>
this could also be on option to have an entry in gui conf telling it to just run a script without any input
05:28
<ogra>
what i will want is a dhcpd.conf editor since ltsp in ubuntu uses a dedicated dhcpd.conf, i wuldnt accept such a tool if it touched /etc/dhcp/dhcpd.conf though but rather rely on a tool our server team provides for that
05:28
thats what i meant wen we initially talked about it with "lets do babysteps" :)
05:29
one thing we all have in common is lts.conf
05:29
<cyberorg>
ogra, paths where you want config files placed would be customizable, so you can have GUI generate templates and use those if you wish or edit distro files manually or with distro tools
05:29
<ogra>
and we have a peoper parser for that we use everywhere (getltscfg)
05:29
which is essentially an .ini file parser
05:29
paths should be set at build time ...
05:30
<The_Code>
and so the lts.conf editor module will be there everytime, everything else distro dependend
05:30
<cyberorg>
ogra, yeah, packagers can include their config files
05:30
<ogra>
if someone wants to use nfs instead of images he will default to some path inside the chroot ... others will want it from tftp by default
05:30
The_Code, right
05:31
make it modular enough that distros can easily plug in their extras
05:31
<The_Code>
this is the goal from now on
05:31
<ogra>
but for a start (and i know how short SoC is) lets concentrate on lts.onf and have a proper plugin setup
05:32* ogra has unfinished SoC projects all over ubuntu from the last two years that didnt finish because they wanted to implement the world... rather starts small :)
05:32
<ogra>
s/starts/start/
05:33
<cyberorg>
ogra, other things like ltsp-build-client and ltsp-server-initialize are nothing but buttonts that call shell scripts
05:33
*buttons
05:33
<The_Code>
configured in the gui conf
05:34
<ogra>
cyberorg, right, something like that
05:35
the intresting bit will be the setup for multiple servers, you need a very good front/backend design for that
05:35
<cyberorg>
ogra, we are not even thinking about that now :)
05:35
<ogra>
so try to design the app from the begining into a service that listens for tls encrypted connects and a frntend
05:36
for the beginning just as a loopback thing
05:36
cyberorg, it will get in your way if you dont do it from the beginning
05:36
thats essentially why i dropped work on ltsp-manager
05:37
<cyberorg>
lts.conf manager that has agents running on other servers?
05:37
<ogra>
its design would never allow more than loca management and it would be way to much effort to redesign (a rewrite is faster here)
05:37
cyberorg, no, it hasnt, thats wat i say
05:37
its a design failure
05:37
take that into account from the beginnign
05:38
<cyberorg>
i mean, we design this GUI with agents running on other servers in mind ?
05:38
<ogra>
split ui and the actual code that touches the config in two apps that talk to each other
05:38
for the start just talking over loopback
05:39
<cyberorg>
hmm, good idea
05:39
<ogra>
but with the opportunity to put tls encrypted remote cnnections in place later
05:39
<The_Code>
so that i can have the conf app on another server and talk to it?
05:39
<ogra>
else you end up with something like ltsp-manager
05:40
The_Code, right, have a UI part and a client that listens on a port
05:40
<The_Code>
the world is growing
05:40
<ogra>
as long as its loopback you can likely omit any encryption and stuff
05:41
<cyberorg>
The_Code, your world will grow very rapidly over next few months :)
05:41
<ogra>
but it should be expandable by that
05:41
The_Code, thats why i say keep the list of features as small as possible
05:41
the planning and speccing is the essdential bit
05:41
*essential
05:42
<The_Code>
encryption as an option first only loopback, on schedule
05:43
<ogra>
and for the UI, do tests with your mother while developing it ;)
05:43
<The_Code>
will do
05:43
<ogra>
ask her to enable some certain thing in teh config and see if she manages , the your UI is good
05:44
s/the/then/
05:44
<cyberorg>
:)
05:44
<ogra>
(doesnt essentially need to be your mother indeed ;) but you know what i mean, a computer illiterate person for testing)
05:45
<The_Code>
ogra: i got you
05:45
<ogra>
ltsp is used by many teachers with no or not much knowledge about computers
05:46
<cyberorg>
ogra, i have conveyed that thought already :)
05:46
<The_Code>
i know a school teacher, i will ask him to test when the time has come
05:46
<ogra>
great
05:53* The_Code has to go to university now
05:59Pascal_1 has joined #ltsp
06:02daya has quit IRC
06:08
<ogra>
cyberorg, oh, and pretty please dont use XML (i just saw the ML discussion) lts.conf is an ini file, no need to explicitly use a format conversion back and forth here
06:09
<cyberorg>
ogra, how do you suggest we handle backups, rollbacks, porting it to another server etc?
06:10
<ogra>
bzr for rollbacks, tgz for backups and porting over
06:10
no need to add compilcated extras *just because we can*
06:11
keep it easy ad at a level that you can still hadle it from commandline if something fails
06:11
lts.conf has the right format already, no need for additional complication layers on top of that
06:12
<cyberorg>
that is the idea, commandline and directly editing any file would be possible, and XML backend will sync with whatever manual modifications
06:12
<ogra>
thats why scott selected an ini file parser to handle it
06:12
no, keep both at the same level
06:12
<cyberorg>
we are not use XML just for lts.conf changes, we will be storing stuff we do to other config files too
06:13* ogra hopes that isnt true
06:13
<ogra>
what *other* config files ?
06:13
<cyberorg>
dhcpd.conf?
06:13
<ogra>
i surely dont want the tool to touch *any* of the system files
06:13
dhcpd.conf only if its dedicated
06:14
<cyberorg>
ogra, of course, you can choose just to create templates and modify distro files manually
06:14
<ogra>
like we do in ubuntu with a sepearate dhcpd.conf that overrides the one in /etc/dhcp
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06:16
<cyberorg>
bzr will not give flexibility of reverting one field or per client basis, we cannot group clients etc
06:17
nor can we copy over one client's config to selected clients
06:17
<ogra>
sigh
06:17
why would you copy over anything to a single client
06:17
its read from lts.conf
06:18
it might make sense to split it up on a per client base vs general server settings, but i'm totally resstant to the XML idea
06:19
<cyberorg>
ogra, for example if user wants to multiple clients grouped, so any change made to that group applies to all?
06:19
<ogra>
thats fine
06:19
as i said, split the file
06:20
put it these sit out pieces in group dedicated subdirs ... at the end assemble a stadard lts.conf from it
06:20
have bzr maintain the whole dir setup so you are able to roll back single configs
06:21
trivial and straightforward
06:21
<cyberorg>
ogra, wouldn't XML simplify that rather than split into folders and merge?
06:21
<ogra>
not for proper rollback
06:21
and you give the admi an easy to understand setup
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06:23
<cyberorg>
ogra, that would require the GUI to become version control client too, it would be easier for the gui to keep its own storage and do rollbacks/reverts/exports
06:25
we can list out pros/cons and take it from there :)
06:28
<ogra>
running bzr commit in the backend doesnt require the gui to be a version control client
06:28
<cyberorg>
ogra, for reverting to last change or selected change does?
06:29
<ogra>
the GUI just needs a "rollback" button going back a step at a time with the option to pick single client configs
06:30
keep it simple
06:30
dont overcomplicate something thats already easy
06:30
lts.conf format was chosen for a reason
06:31
<cyberorg>
i'd be saving this log for The_Code to read later :)
06:31* ogra doesnt want a yast in ltsp
06:31
<cyberorg>
yast doesn't use xml
06:32
<ogra>
but it duplicates a lot of stuff that shuld be better handled directly
06:32
<cyberorg>
it would be easier to do this in yast, we get ncurses mode for free :)
06:32
<ogra>
whiptail isnt tat hard to use :)
06:33
<cyberorg>
ogra, i agree about the duplication, but we want the school teacher who doesn't know anything about computers to be able to set up a server
06:33
<ogra>
right
06:33
which he should be able to do *without* and lts.conf anyway
06:33
<cyberorg>
i don't want to point them to different tools to set up different services required to get ltsp running on their distro
06:34
<ogra>
ltsp is moving towards no lts.conf since ltsp5 exists
06:34
thats one of the main targets
06:34
<cyberorg>
yeah, that is one good thing, i said that in last meeting, lts.conf would be minimal skeleton
06:34
<ogra>
you dont need to set up anything in a ubuntu install nor in a debian install
06:34
by design
06:35
<cyberorg>
ogra, network, dhcp, nfs (if required), firewall ports, activating xinetd services - tftp etc is required
06:35
<ogra>
if you guys in suse or fedora decide to add extra stuff on top, like server side initscripts, go for it... you wont see me using such stuff
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06:36
<ogra>
cyberorg, nothing of the above needs to be touched for an initial ubuntu setup
06:36
its all dont by the packages
06:37
<cyberorg>
ogra, you can't have services running all by themselves and firewall ports open without user telling the system?
06:37
<ogra>
and focus of ltsp5 is to integrate it *with the distro* if that means changesw to the nfs server package of your distro these have to be dont first instead of adding additional scripts or stuff
06:37
s/dont/done/
06:38
thats the design of ltsp5 ... if you want to change it for your specific distro, feel free, but the definition says *integrate with the existing distro packages*
06:39
that also applies for the server side, not only for the client chroot
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06:41
<ogra>
cyberorg, things like nbdrootd and nbdswapd are already violating that for example ... both should be functions nbd-server should be able to provide on its own ...
06:42
<cyberorg>
ogra, yeah, we install both of those enabled by default, not sure it would get past suse's security team
06:43
<ogra>
see, there we have a fundamental distro difference :)
06:43
<cyberorg>
ogra, fedora also doesn't allow any xinetd service to be on upon installation
06:43
<ogra>
in deb based systems policy says a service needs to run immediately after install in a default config :)
06:44
so i understand that you need something to enable it in your distro (and fedora too)
06:44
still, such things arent necessary in ubuntu or debian, so we'll never have it
06:45
<cyberorg>
the_code_, http://pastebin.com/d1869811b ogra's views on XML
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06:46
<cyberorg>
ogra, we'll make it modular, so the GUI shows only things that packager want to be seen
06:46
<ogra>
yes, yu will need a lot of build time setup to please everyone
06:48
<cyberorg>
a config file ;)
06:48
<ogra>
thats why i say start off only with lts.conf :) getting that properly specced will eat half of your SoC time already if you want to do it right :)
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06:48
<ogra>
right, something like that
06:49
but a config file implies you wil need a lot of special casing in your code as well
06:49
which is hard to get right in a fashion that it stays maintainable later if more features come
06:49
<cyberorg>
ogra, no, we leave all that to distro's script to handle
06:50
except of lts.conf configuration that would be handled by the GUI everything else would be by distro's scripts if required by them
06:50
<ogra>
that wont work ... one distro will handle things differently to the other .... so you always need something that hooks in to the different handlers in your code
06:50
and that needs to be maintained
06:51
the more special cases you have the more extra work you have to do if you change a single option
06:51
<cyberorg>
ogra, names of the scripts would be same, there are just two scripts ltsp-build-client and ltsp-server-initialize, rest is all lts.conf management
06:51
<ogra>
well
06:52
<cyberorg>
ogra, we wont get into single option configuration of various other config files
06:52
for that distro tools should be used or vi ;)
06:52
<ogra>
you will want to have a statusbar in your gui showing a lottle green or red dot for example to indicate all server processes are fine
06:52
upstart handles status differently to sysvinit
06:52
sysvinit handles status differently in fedora than in debian
06:53
etc
06:53
<cyberorg>
ogra, those things we would do it in the end after we have lts.conf worked out nicely
06:54
netstat would work same on all distros?
06:54
<ogra>
in ubuntu we ship a service manager by default, i would only want a button that starts this app to manage services and a change to the service app that allows to only show related sevices
06:54
suse might want to start yast for that
06:54
etc
06:54
all this needs to be reflected in your code
06:55
if you dont want to drive it against the wall in two years because it became unmaintainable, goos planning i the most essential thing here
06:55
s/goos/good/
06:55
<cyberorg>
ogra, you misunderstood this part, we are just going to put a button that runs shell scripts to set up services, not create something that lets user manage those
06:56
<ogra>
right, wont work for me
06:56
my services are set up already
06:56
<cyberorg>
so you can leave those buttons out in your package :)
06:56
<ogra>
all i need is something to montor or start/stop them
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06:57
<ogra>
just try to not underestimate maintenance of what you design is what i say
06:57
<cyberorg>
we are not planning anything complicated, just call some shell scripts, for monitoring if you want we can put a button that calls ltsp-server-status which each distros would have to write
06:58
<ogra>
that should be built into the backend
06:58
i.e. ltsp-manger-backend-query --status :)
06:59
<cyberorg>
ogra, we would just be making use of two scripts that we have now, nothing fancy, those scripts are not installed/maintained by the GUI
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06:59
<ogra>
no, the gui (in my example) should just call the bove command and get true or false back :)
06:59
and show something according to that
07:00
but your backend will need to handle the different status systems
07:00
like upstart, sysv or whatever else
07:00
(will become fun once someone starts to implement ltsp5 on slackware :) )
07:00
<cyberorg>
ogra, yeah, it could if such script already exist, it would be beyond the scope of this SOC to write and maintain it for all distros
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07:01
<ogra>
no, but the code produced by this SoC should result in something thats usable for enhancement so such things need to be taken into account at plannin phase
07:02
thats why i say planning will be 80% of the SoC work to get it right
07:02
<cyberorg>
ogra, yup, thats true, but the prime goal is lts.conf management, everything else is bonus
07:02
<ogra>
acking that together in a usable manner takes an experienced guy a week
07:02
(i wrote ltsp-manager as it in in two days)
07:02
s/as it/as is/
07:03
<cyberorg>
we've got till september :)
07:03
<ogra>
right
07:03
so put some thought into the design so we can still use it in three years without getting a headdache if someone wants to change a single feautre or add another distro
07:04
thats all i'm saying :)
07:05
<cyberorg>
yeah, that is why we intend to use shell scrips for distro specific stuff, all distros can add their own if required
07:05
<the_code_>
ogra: will do it modular so that you can change the part you want to change
07:05
<ogra>
ubuntu has only a handfull of flavours (k/ed/x/ubuntu) you wouldnt belive how many manhours it burns to change something that applies to all of them
07:06
anyway, i need to get some merge wok done :)
07:07
*work
07:07
<cyberorg>
ogra, thanks for all your great inputs :)
07:08
<ogra>
lets see what comes out :)
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07:32
<sepski>
i am testing sound on a thin client, but i get the error sound requested but /dev/dsp missing,
07:32
<tarzeau>
sepski: you need to use ALSA not OSS
07:33
<sepski>
i only have SOUND=Y in lts.conf
07:34
so the error is irrelevant then
07:35
<tarzeau>
which program?
07:35
you need to tell your program to not use OSS
07:35
<sepski>
i just tried kde initially
07:36
and the error i mentiond was from thin client boot up
07:38
<ogra>
is that ltsp5 ?
07:43
<sepski>
yes. but it seams the user i tested with had edited kde sound settings, worked on another user
07:44
<ogra>
kde needs to have "use arts through esd" or something like that in kcontrol iirc
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07:45
<ogra>
the dsp message is irrelevant ... its from ancient times where oss was used
07:45
<sepski>
good to know
07:45
<ogra>
you will likey see it on every client nowadays since we use alsa by default
07:46
<sepski>
atlest its not wrong just confusing :)
07:47
<ogra>
yeah
07:47* ogra doesnt have these probs in ubuntu, users by default only see usplash :)
07:48
<ogra>
so i dont really care about obsolete bootmsgs :)
07:51
<sepski>
ogra, we have usplash as well, but i read syslog :)
07:51
since i had no sound on a test users
07:51
<ogra>
ah :)
07:52
<sepski>
thanks for the clearifications all, guess i somehow have to check the sound settings of 700 users...
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08:19
<Nuba1>
is there a reason why the user-manager would not seem to work? I'm trying to change user settings on the server directly, and any changes are not reflected in passwd and shadow... where does user-manager store its data?
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10:25
<achandrashekar>
hello. looking for some help with an ltsp roll out for 50 clients p3s with 383 megs of ram. Anyhow. we have 2 athlon x2 systems available and a 10/100 setup. However, in the initial setup of on emachine with 2gb of ram we get very slow response when using edubuntu 8.04. Ive hear dof mille-xterm, but is there a way to utilize what we have to roll out more nodes, and not diminish performance?
10:26
i suppsoe its an architectural question.
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10:31
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, add more ram to the server
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10:33
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, while you are testing, give prebuilt image from http://en.opensuse.org/LTSP a run too, I would like to know how it handles many clients
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10:33
<achandrashekar>
cyberorg: im, really loooking for a cluster type setup...and mosix is dead
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10:34
<achandrashekar>
cyberorg: i think mille-xterm is there...but besides dhcp-failvoer which is documented...what else is out there to use the computing power of the nodes??
10:34
<cyberorg>
ah, but a single server with about 3GB ram should be powerful enough to run 30 - 40 TC
10:34
<achandrashekar>
this is serious roll out...not just a measly 10 systems and call it a day roll out.
10:35
cyberorg: image all systems being hit at the same time with kids hammering away at it in openoffice...recipe for disaster.
10:35
image=imagine...sorry
10:35
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, RAM is the only constraint, processors is ok
10:36
<achandrashekar>
okay..the damn systems only have two banks..perhaps what i can do is to upgrade to 4gb..i think though the kernel may have a limit and ill have to do something special..in edubuntu
10:36
and try again..
10:37
<cyberorg>
one of the ltsp 4.2 set up we have here is over 40 clients on p4 server with 2 Gig ram
10:37
<achandrashekar>
is that running k12ltsp?
10:37
and running gnome or kde?? or jsut simple x terminal?
10:37
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, if you go for 4GB you need x86_64 OS to take full advantage of it
10:38
<achandrashekar>
yeah...and then build-client for i386...of which flash and java issues
10:38
darn.
10:38
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, it is running fedora gnome, full office use
10:38
<achandrashekar>
and usage of clients per machine...at the same time?
10:38
<cyberorg>
you can first try with 3GB and see how it goes
10:39
<achandrashekar>
okay...might just have to go that route..
10:39
something really wierd though...if and when a person hits a flash site...it kills the damn systems
10:39
flash is a resource hog
10:40
and you are absolutely correct about the memory allocation
10:40
cpu is not affected...but the memory takes a hit.
10:40
I show of the 2gb 383Mib being used at all times.
10:40
is that correct??
10:40
<cyberorg>
firefox is a memory hog too, although 3 is ok
10:41
<achandrashekar>
yes...im on 8.04, and even with 3, i only had 4 systems fired up...and the system was coughing...
10:41
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, the way linux works is it always uses up all available memory, most of it in cache and buffer, so don't worry if it is always 100% used
10:42
<achandrashekar>
i see... okay
10:42
its the performance that is scaring me....let me give you an example...
10:42
i addded an account
10:42
<cyberorg>
i just ran 11 clients on 2 GB machine and did a openoffice training for one client, all clients were hammering away on ooo
10:42
<achandrashekar>
went to a node...logged in no problem
10:42
fire up 6 more nodes..
10:43
go to one of other nodes... 4 mins to simply login
10:43
just seemed like an inordinate amount of time..
10:43
and then from there performance browsing...etc...was excrutiatingly slow
10:44
so that is why i figured..what are my options here..or am i doing something wrong..
10:44
and in fact it may be memory.
10:44
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, make sure you don't have any network bottlenecks, like bad switch/cables
10:44
<achandrashekar>
and in fact this could be..
10:44
everything is connected to a 10/100 3com switch.
10:45
all nodes at 100full
10:45
but the cabling etc...maybe i need to go through each ad every-single node.
10:46
<cyberorg>
i'd give 150M ram on server per client, it performs extremely well, processor is not such a big constraint
10:46
<achandrashekar>
anyhow...from what you are saying with about 3 gb of memory..i can still run the i386 server version...and go from there...
10:47
cyberorg...how do i set the 150m per ram per system bit...
10:47
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, you don't just rule of thumb advise :)
10:48
<achandrashekar>
i see...so its a "rule"..not a setting ;)
10:48
lol
10:48
okay...i thought you could actually allocate that...
10:49
cyberorg: any issues with running the i386 version on a x64bit system?i was advised to go with the i386 build for flash and java purposes.
10:50
<cyberorg>
achandrashekar, no issue at all
10:51
<achandrashekar>
okay...I will try once more...I do think though that you may be absolutely right about the network faux-pas that we have....and i will test every line.
10:54
thanks for your help
10:54
as for large infrastructure build..what clustering options are there though?
10:56
<ogra>
http://doc.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/edubuntu/handbook/C/multiple-server-setup.html
10:56
amd64 and flash/java isnt an issue anymore in 8.04, nspluginwrapper should handle that flawlessly
10:57
<achandrashekar>
ogra: yep read that one...with dhcp-failover correct.. that is at the server level....what about the nodes?
10:57
<ogra>
what about them ?
10:57
instead of failover just use a roud-robn mechanism that connects every other client to a different server
10:57
<achandrashekar>
ogra: my experience with nspluginwrapper...ran very slow with the 64bit operating system...so i rolled back to i386....and no issues.
10:58
<ogra>
hmm
10:58
<achandrashekar>
at least with one node...that is..
10:58
and as for th multi-server setup...the guide is excellent..
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10:58
<achandrashekar>
i did that also in one lab...
10:58
<ogra>
well, if you want to use i386 with so many clients, use in any case the -server kernel package
10:58
it adresses above 3G
10:58
<achandrashekar>
but the smb-ldap portion is riddled with mistakes..
10:59
<ogra>
its outdated (sorry for that)
10:59
<achandrashekar>
and the auto-installer...that the guide speaks of breaks the authentication..because new 8.04,7.10 configs use ldap.conf now.
10:59
<ogra>
i'll meet moquist in prague in two weeks, we'll discuss that
11:00
(at UDS)
11:00
<achandrashekar>
ogra: no issues...the other guide...that is on source-forge for smb-ldap for edubuntu is solid
11:00
<ogra>
ah, k
11:00
<achandrashekar>
ogra: id let him know to simply re-write the script for ubuntu to use that.
11:00
<ogra>
i think hs time is very limited
11:01
thats the reason for it lagging behind
11:01
<achandrashekar>
ogra: i really wish though...that some focus would be given BACK to the nodes...rather the server..with open-mosix being dead..someone has to capitilize on the nodes again..which often just sit..
11:01
rather than the server that is..
11:02
<ogra>
well, we will meet in portland for the ltsp hackfest in july, i hope we can focus at localapps for that
11:02
<achandrashekar>
there seems to have been some work done early on...but the project is either dead...or the mille-xterm seems to be the one to use...but im no good with frecnh :)
11:02
<ogra>
there is proof of concept work done already
11:02
it just needs proper implementation
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11:03
<ogra>
achandrashekar, fgiraldeau speaks english very well :) and i think he'd be happy to help
11:03
<achandrashekar>
ogra: yep..i agree...the concept is LARGE infrastructure roll .
11:03
does he frequent?
11:03
<ogra>
50 clients isnt large :)
11:03
<achandrashekar>
this channel?
11:03
<ogra>
he is here from time to time but not an actual IRC fan
11:04
<achandrashekar>
yeah..i have to be honest with you its for a large csu university..
11:04
and we are looking to do a roll out of over 1000 clients. :)
11:04
<ogra>
see pm
11:04
<achandrashekar>
k
11:04
got it thanks.
11:04
<ogra>
you cn mail him, i think he'll happily help you
11:04
<achandrashekar>
awesome...will do.
11:05
<ogra>
mille just operates on top of the current ltsp5 infrastructure, its quite good for big rllouts
11:05
(and i'm talking five digits and above here :) )
11:05
<achandrashekar>
wow
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11:06
<achandrashekar>
i will definitely give him a call then.
11:06
brb
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11:15
<Nuba1>
so I just set up seperate exam profiles using sabayon and pessulus and it all worked wonderfully, I'm impressed
11:16
<ogra>
Nuba1, send flowers to johnny he put quite some work into sabayon during hardy development
11:16
<Nuba1>
its a bit fragile, but in the end it works...
11:16
<johnny>
Nuba1, i'd love for it to be less fragile.i just haven't been able to afford to put more time into it
11:17
let's hope i can put a bit more effort into it before 2.24 release
11:17
backports should be possible luckily
11:17
<Nuba1>
yeah, think its also because there's a lot for it to do on multiple accounts, so it tends to hang a bit
11:17
<johnny>
as long as gio/gvfs bindings come out before 2.24
11:17
for python
11:18
Nuba1, i'll see what i can do to get it to use xephyr instead of xnest
11:18
<Nuba1>
but important thing is it works, I was able to create a seperate profiles for our exam candidates with very specific profiles and it all worked ok
11:19
yeah xnest is what ends up get zombied sessions
11:20
<johnny>
this is funny ..
11:20
David sez, "Someone put a plastic bag over the camera cluster on one of Google's Street View cars, and the resulting imagery seems to have made it right through to Google Maps."
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12:23
<johnny>
is there any way i can convice you guys to make getltscfg not give a syntax error on an empty config file?
12:23
<ogra>
johnny, send a patch :)
12:23
i wrapped some script magic around it in hardy to not call it at all on empty files as a wrokaround
12:24
<johnny>
aha.. no wonder it works :)
12:24
lol
12:24
<ogra>
but indeed that doesnt fix the actual issue
12:24
<johnny>
cuz i'm having trouble with it grabbing my tftpboot lts.conf
12:24
i had to put it in the chroot again
12:24
altho that is unchanged from gutsy
12:25
time for a quick rant
12:25
these guys are TOTAL BASTARDS
12:25
this is just pure evil
12:25
Computer attacks typically don't inflict physical pain on their victims. But hackers recently bombarded the Epilepsy Foundation's Web site with hundreds of pictures and links to pages with rapidly flashing images. The breach triggered severe migraines and near-seizure reactions in some site visitors who viewed the images.
12:25
<ogra>
# Read in lts.conf entries.
12:25
if [ -f /etc/lts.conf ] && [ -n "$(grep -v ^# /etc/lts.conf)" ]; then
12:25
eval $(getltscfg -a) || true
12:25
fi
12:26
the if wrapper is what you want
12:26
especially the second check
12:26
<johnny>
yes
12:26
<ogra>
hmm, looking at the the first check is moot :)
12:27
not needed at all since grep will return false anyway if the file is missing
12:31
<johnny>
actually i had that code
12:31
so guess that's not my problem
12:31
<ogra>
do you call getltscfg anywhere else directly ?
12:32
<johnny>
guess not
12:32
i was calling it manually to see why i might not have booted into the proper session
12:32
<ogra>
ah
12:33
put an echo $(env) >/tmp/env.out into the ldm screen script
12:33
see what the vaues are :)
12:33
*values
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13:06
<gvy>
ogra, ! :)
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13:29
<joel_>
Anyone had a problem with the boot process? Mine freezes during the PXE boot proces.
13:31
Any suggestions?
13:33
<gvy>
last lines?
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13:49
<joel_>
Were you talking to me gvy, a couple of minutes ago?
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14:03
<joel_>
The system freezes about a quarter way through the load bar on the splash screen.
14:04
<gvy>
joel_, err... yes
14:04
<joel_>
I have also tried taking out the splash and quiet options in the PXELinux.cfg file.
14:04
<gvy>
argh, splash.
14:05
<joel_>
(pxelinux.cfg/default)
14:05
<gvy>
vga=0 might suffice
14:05
or ...mmm... what was for 80x43...
14:05
<joel_>
hold on!
14:05* gvy listens
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14:12
<joel_>
gvy...
14:13
<gvy>
yep?
14:13
<joel_>
The splash screen still shows and freezes up!
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14:18
<joel_>
Even after adding vga=0 to pxelinux.cfg...
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14:18
<laga>
joel_: try removing "quiet splash"
14:18
if that's ubuntu.
14:20
<joel_>
Already did that...
14:21
<laga>
and what do you see on your screen when you do that?
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14:26
<gvy>
joel_, well... i built altlinux-based image just yesterday
14:27
if all else fails, ftp://ftp.linux.kiev.ua/pub/Linux/ALT/beta/ltsp-server/
14:29
<joel_>
Nothing really changed (visually) after removing the text from the file.
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18:13
<alan>
Does anyone here have experience with setting up sound on Ubuntu Hardy
18:14
<gvy>
-
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19:34
<alan>
Can someone point me to a howto page to sound on ltsp? Using Ubuntu Hardy. Everything I read says 'works automatically". Unfortunately, that doesn't help troubleshooting.
19:49
:-!
19:50
<johnny>
hmm.. yeah.. it just worked for me
19:50
at least i hear the desktop sound
19:50
when i plugged my laptop in
19:50
none of my real terminals have sound on them tho
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19:56
<alan>
using bunch of Dell Optiplex gx110s with the HD pulled. work great, just no freaking sound
19:57
<johnny>
you should test the sound on the server..
19:58
make sure that works
20:00
<alan>
okay
20:01
give me a few minutes
20:09
ok I get a login sound when I logon to the server
20:10
when I logon to a client I do not get sound on the server...I had read that certain people would get all sounds through the server.
20:18
back in a minute
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20:26
<alan>
that sucks...still nothing
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20:44
<alan>
johnny> thanks for your help....I'll keep looking
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