IRC chat logs for #ltsp on irc.freenode.net (webchat)


Channel log from 6 May 2016   (all times are UTC)

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06:36
<lunz>
hi, I'm a non-network person trying my hand at reviving old computers with a standard/vanilla single card ltsp server setup. I can't set a static interface for my ltsp server, so I left /etc/network/interfaces at default (I assume it's being dynamically allocated); also, terminals connect to the server but keep timing out (pxe-e32 error). Is this a systemd problem, btw?
06:36
i'm using xubuntu 16.04 server
06:37
<alkisg>
lunz: try this:
06:37
!ltsp-pnp
06:37
<ltsp`>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
06:37
<alkisg>
It's using dnsmasq, single card, external dhcp etc
06:37
Also, better use mate-desktop-i386.iso instead
06:37
!ubuntu-mate
06:37
<ltsp`>
ubuntu-mate: Ubuntu-mate works very well with LTSP, even with older clients. Download the 64-bit version if *all* your clients have >= 2GB RAM, otherwise download the 32-bit version. http://ubuntu-mate.org/download/
06:42
<lunz>
i saw ltsp-pnp online, but I'd still like to troubleshoot why standard ltsp isn't working according to online instructions, most of which are old too.
06:43
<alkisg>
Yup, that's the result of a method not being too well supported :)
06:43
You probably have 2 dhcp servers running now?
06:43
One in your router and one in your dhcp server?
06:44
ltsp-pnp is pretty much the standard nowadays, not many people use the old method...
06:45
<lunz>
alkisg: what do i use to find any clashing dhcp server ips?
06:46
<alkisg>
dpkg -l isc-dhcp-server
06:46
this tells you if you have a dhcp server in your ltsp server
06:46
do you?
06:49
<lunz>
alkisg: yes, isc-dhcp-server is used; and when I ran route or netstat -an, i saw a router name show up but couldnt determine the IP (gateway is set at the standard x.x.x.1 anyhow)
06:49
<alkisg>
lunz: ip a ==> shows you the ethernet name, e.g. eth0
06:50
sudo /usr/lib/klibc/bin/ipconfig -n eth0 ==> tells your ethernet card to ask for a dhcp lease from an external dhcp server
06:50
If it gets one, then you have 2 dhcp servers, which is an issue
06:50
<lunz>
the primary interface shows up as enp0s25
06:50
<alkisg>
Primary? Didn' you say you have only one?
06:51
"single card ltsp setup"...
06:52
<lunz>
alkisg: well, only one shows up .... habit of speech (from online guides), i guess
06:53
a lot has changed, i realise
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06:54
<alkisg>
lunz: do you have and are you planning to use 2 ethernet cards, or just 1?
06:56
<lunz>
alkisg: i saw this single card instruction (lower down) about adding dns-search and dns-nameservers: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/StaticIP
06:57
<alkisg>
Please answer my question
06:58
Both setups are doable (1 or 2 nics), I haven't yet understood which one are you trying to do
06:58
I don't care about online wiki pages, they're mostly broken
06:58
<lunz>
alkisg: I dont plan on adding another card; the Internet plugged into the switch works fine when I dont put static interface entries for the server
06:58
<alkisg>
So now you have one card only, correct?
06:58
<lunz>
yes
06:59
<alkisg>
OK, let's go on with the ipconfig command
06:59
sudo /usr/lib/klibc/bin/ipconfig -n enp0s25
06:59
This will do a fake dhcp request and tell you which dhcp server answers
06:59
Which will probably be your router
07:00
<lunz>
alkisg: I should inform you that the ltsp network is at another location; I wont be there for a few hours ... just doing overnight research
07:00
you mean "ifconfig -n"?
07:00
<alkisg>
No
07:01
So, do you have a router there?
07:01
That also works as a dhcp server?
07:01
And that gives a dynamic ip to your ltsp server?
07:01
<lunz>
alkisg: I have a wireless router plugged into the switch
07:01
<alkisg>
Right. So, you can't use the classic ltsp setup
07:02
Go for ltsp-pnp, even if you can't understand why now, it'll just work out of the box for you.
07:02
<lunz>
alkisg: I'm not sure where if the source of the ip is the router or the server
07:02
<alkisg>
The router gives IP addresses to the clients
07:02
That's why ltsp-pnp was invented, to help out people using a single nic and a router
07:03
So that they don't have to learn all the networking stuff
07:03
<lunz>
alkisg: wow, lol ..... and i got the impression standard ltsp worked out-of-the-box, judging from all the online instructions
07:03
<alkisg>
Not really, it always needed manual network configuration
07:03
And it was always easier in the 2 nic setups
07:04
While ltsp-pnp works out of the box in both cases, single and dual nic setups
07:04
<lunz>
alkisg: yes, i noticed most were 2 card setups
07:04
<alkisg>
And that usually means people needed to rewire their computer labs
07:04
I.e. more network knowledge
07:05
I had to support 1000+ schools here, I couldn't give them the necessary knowledge, so i invented ltsp-pnp instead :)
07:06
Since then, most ltsp setups use that method instead of the older one
07:06
<lunz>
alkisg: oh, you're the ltsp-pnp creator? Does it have a strong support community?
07:07
<alkisg>
Well, you're having support now, don't you?
07:07
While you didn't have for the older setup :)
07:07
<lunz>
alkisg: I'm asking because I noticed projects like k12ltsp and edubuntu have fallen by the wayside or are in stasis
07:07
<alkisg>
There are 3 developers still working in ltsp
07:07
None is working in k12ltsp or edubuntu
07:07
Thousands of sites are still using ltsp
07:08
So it's not going to die soon
07:08
Of course as open source goes, if developers stop getting paid about a project, it dies
07:08
<lunz>
alkisg: yes, I'm impressed with ltsp, but I tried to go the standalone route, since the alternative ISO is so outdated
07:09
<alkisg>
So usually they're being paid by a company that uses it or for support etc
07:09
There's no alternative iso
07:09
The classic ltsp setup wiki pages are too outdated
07:09
They should be deleted, imho, but noone is caring for them enough to even delete them
07:09
<lunz>
alkisg: there's a 12.04 alternate still maintained
07:10
alkisg: oh, i see
07:10
<alkisg>
The desktop setups of 12.04 are no longer supported
07:10
Only the server setups are
07:10
Anyway, to sum up, try the 2 links I gave you first, and if you see something you don't like *then* look for alternatives
07:12
<lunz>
alkisg: I'll experiment with them; a bit disappointed standard ltsp has so many issues though ... i'd think dhcp and tftp stuff would've been more-or-less straightforward
07:12
<alkisg>
lunz: I think you misunderstood the concept of "standard ltsp"
07:13
ltsp-pnp is "standard" now
07:14
The classic setup is still available for those that have specific network needs, need isolated computer labs for ltsp clients with 2 nic setups etc, but it's not where developers focus anymore
07:14
<lunz>
alkisg: perhaps, I guess I meant ltsp using vanilla dhcp, tftp, etc, rather than dnsmasq, proxydhcp, etc
07:14
<alkisg>
E.g. you say that "edhcp should be standard", but you haven't understood that you can't have 2 dhcp servers
07:15
So while it IS standard, it requires knowledge that many people lack, as a protocol, not as software
07:16
<lunz>
alkisg: i understand the clashing dhcp part; it's just that I'm surprised a patch or update hasnt taken care of that problem already
07:17
not that I'm an expert or anything .... but dhcp, ftp are so basic to the fibre of networking
07:18
<alkisg>
lunz, you're still not understanding this. It's not a matter of updates, what you're asking is not possible without creating a new dhcp protocol and throwing out all the computers that already exist
07:20
<lunz>
alkisg: i guess one of the contending dhcp servers cant be suppressed then
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07:22
<alkisg>
The usual solutions there (single nic ltsp server on a network with a router), are:
07:22
1) stop the router from being a dhcp server and only leave the ltsp server
07:22
2) if the router is very expensive and configurable (e.g. cisco), put boot filename etc there, and stop the ltsp server, or
07:22
3) make the ltsp server a proxydhcp server, not a real dhcp server
07:23
In all 3 cases, you don't have 2 clashing dhcp servers
07:23
ltsp-pnp is using (3), as it doesn't require anything from the person setting up ltsp, it just works
07:25
<lunz>
alkisg: so proxydhcp *is* the workaround to the clash; fair enough, since the switch used is 2nd-hand and unmanaged
07:25
the router is borrowed too
07:25
<alkisg>
(3) is not supported by isc-dhcp-server, only by dnsmasq, because we asked him to do that for ltsp-pnp
07:25
It's not a workaround, it's part of the pxe protocol
07:26
We can't invent a new protocol, because pxe clients have it hardcoded in their ROM, we'd have to throw them away if we invented a new protocol
07:28
<lunz>
ok, not "workaround", "alternative" .... what is most important for me is your "out-of-the-box" claim :D
07:28
<alkisg>
Hence the -pnp part, out of the box :)
07:29
!ltsp-pnp
07:29
<ltsp`>
ltsp-pnp: ltsp-pnp is an alternative (upstream) method to maintain LTSP installations for thin and fat clients that doesn't involve chroots: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ltsp-pnp
07:29
<lunz>
alkisg: simply purge ltsp-server-standalone and install ltsp-pnp?
07:29
<alkisg>
and it also mentions "alternative" there :)
07:29
No, completely reinstall the server using the desktop iso of mate
07:29
It will be easier for you and forus supporting you
07:30
<lunz>
alkisg: i would prefer sticking with xubuntu; i dont like the idea of having to switch platform too
07:30
alkisg: is pnp only tested on mate?
07:30
<alkisg>
OK, but keep in mind that no ltsp developer is using or testing it
07:31
LTSP is only tested on gnome-flashback and mate
07:31
<lunz>
wow
07:31
<alkisg>
Ah and lxde
07:31
Many people use it fine on unity, and I think some on xubuntu and kde, but with some issues
07:32
Anyway, how many clients are you planning to use and what are their specs, cpu/ram?
07:33
The problem with ltsp is that it allows new software to run on ancient computers. It's a problem because e.g. normally you can't run unity on a 128mb client, so its developers have never tested that.
07:33
And they don't care about 3d or compositing over the network etc etc
07:34
So we have to send bug fixes to the desktop environments (not to ltsp), and we can only do that for a few desktop environments
07:34
<lunz>
alkisg: very low-end .... right now there is about 4-5 (hopefully expanded to 10, then 20-30) 1.5GB RAM terminals and a 4GB RAM/3GHz server
07:34
<alkisg>
I.e. the problem usually isn't ltsp, but the desktop environments themselves
07:34
1.5 gb isn't low end
07:34
They're good enough to be ran as ltsp fat clients (diskless)
07:34
ltsp-pnp will automatically do that for you too
07:35
<lunz>
alkisg: well, not for ltsp, but as computers, hell yeah, lol
07:35
<alkisg>
Did you install your ltsp server using the server iso?
07:35
<lunz>
alkisg: yes, I do an iso install, then download ltsp
07:35
<alkisg>
So it doesn't have a desktop environment?
07:36
<lunz>
alkisg: i install a desktop env to act as a server
07:36
<alkisg>
OK, do you see that this doesn't make sense?
07:36
<lunz>
alkisg: it's for a kids homework centre
07:36
<alkisg>
Why start with ubuntu-server if you want xubuntu?
07:36
<lunz>
alkisg: how so?
07:36
<alkisg>
Start with xubuntu iso
07:37
<lunz>
alkisg: it's a xubuntu desktop install acting as a server
07:38
<alkisg>
OK, that's a lot better :)
07:38
OK then install dnsmasq, uninstall isc-dhcp-server and tftpd-hpa, and continue with the ltsp-pnp steps
07:39
Also run: sudo rm -rf /opt/ltsp before continuing
07:39
Don't forget that one
07:39
<lunz>
alkisg: so no reinstalls? just purge and replace?
07:39
<alkisg>
Yup
07:39
<lunz>
just checking ....
07:39
yay!!!
07:41
<alkisg>
If you put anything to /etc/network/interfaces, remove it and use network-manager
07:41
<lunz>
alkisg: ok, I'll do that later today or monday and let you know how it went .... you're here regularly?
07:41
so no interface entries, you're saying?
07:42
<alkisg>
I'm saying to ignore everything you've read in those other wiki pages :)
07:42
ltsp-pnp tries to be similar to the desktop experience, e.g. network manager instead of /etc/network/interfaces
07:43
<lunz>
alkisg: yeah, i'll have to recondition my mind
07:43
I'm taking notes then will check out pnp docs
07:45
<alkisg>
See, so far it has taken me 1 hour just to undo the damage that those wiki pages did to you, i.e. give you the wrong tips for setting up ltsp
07:46
I'm pretty much ready to start telling people that I don't support the classic ltsp setup, period, without wasting time to explain why...
07:47
<lunz>
alkisg: well, i'm experimenting, so your's had better work! lol ... i've had prolonged hours and days of headache as it is already
07:48
<alkisg>
It's open source, there are no guarantees unless you get a support contract or something :)
07:48
<lunz>
lmao
07:48
alkisg: I hear you
07:50
alkisg: anyhow, thanks for the option
07:51
<alkisg>
You're welcome
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08:06
<highvoltage>
you're in good hands with alkis though :)
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16:41
<Darkend>
Hi. I have a little problem with my thin clients. There are users who do not work the libreoffice 5. They can not open documents. Please help.
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16:53
<Darkend>
hola. tengo un pequeño problema con mis clientes ligeros. Hay usuarios en los que no me trabaja el libreoffice 5. Ellos no pueden abrir documentos. Ayuda por favor.
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17:25
<rprenhol>
Darkend, hola. Prefiro espanol jejeje
17:26
que te ha pasado con estos usuarios?
17:26
hay alguna semejanza entre ellos?
17:27
17:27
<Darkend>
mira he creado un usuario y he copiado su estructura en /etc/skel. luego creé el resto de usuarios y más tarde creé la imagen del sistema.
17:30
A ver si me explico. tengo un laboratorio con 14 pc´s para cada grupo de estudiantes tengo un usuario creado. Eso quiere decir que habrán, al menos, 14 personas logeadas con el mismo username. De esa manera se supone que tendrán que trabajar con el mismo documento copiado y pegado en la carpeta del usuario. Pero el problema es que algunos si pueden abrir docuemntos mientras que otros no.
17:30
¿qué puede hacer? necesito darle solución a esto antes del martes.
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17:35
<rprenhol>
17:36
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17:40
<Darkend>
mira utilize la opcion que me recomendo vagrantc de hacer la imagen como ltsp-pnp. mis equipos tienen 4 GB de RAM por ,o que supongo que levantarán como fat client
17:41
pudiera utilizar fat client perome ha costado trabajo en el area de la creación de los usuarios.
17:42
<rprenhol>
no conozco eso de ltsp-pnp
17:43
qual la version del servidor?
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17:43
<Darkend>
Bueno te explico. Segun me comento vagrantc. la forma ltsp-pnp hace que los clientes con más de 400 MB de RAM levanten como fat client y si tienen menos como thin client.
17:44
el server funciona con Debian wheeze a 32 bits.
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19:09
<Darkend>
rprenhol: disculpa por irme pero un hijopeputivo cerró la conexión por acá y por eso me perdí en el viaje.
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19:13
<rprenhol>
Darkend, jejeje
19:15
Darkend, lo que debes fijarte es si la sesion de usuario esta o no compartida por un export del servidor
19:15
19:16
<Darkend>
rpenhol: te decia que mis clientes se construyeron bajo la opción ltsp-pnp. Eso, supuestamente, hace que clientes con mas de 400MG de RAm booteen como fat client y con menos ram comothin client.
19:17
<rprenhol>
19:17
creo que la home es exportada
19:18
<Darkend>
la home está en otra partición
19:18
no sé si se exporta o no. realmente desconozco como comprobarlo.
19:19
<rprenhol>
como es hibrido el contexto si hay o no mas de 400MB de RAM, las computadoras que tuberen mas, o sea, ejecutar como Fat Clients, deberan comungar del mismo ambiente que las Thin Clients
19:19
19:19
<Darkend>
creo, no estoy seguro que se exporta cuando utilizas algo llamada ndb o algo así. soy un newbie es ento del ltsp.
19:20
<rprenhol>
19:20
<Darkend>
en realidad me convendría mucho hacerlo como fat client pero una vez lo hice con ubuntu 14.04 pero me dejaba entrar sólo con el usuario que utilicé para crear la imagen.
19:21
<rprenhol>
19:24
<Darkend>
pero en sí en que consiste el nbd???
19:25
<rprenhol>
es un tipo de servicio de filesystem sobre red, algo como NFS
19:26
<Darkend>
bueno cero que las mias usan nfs
19:26
<rprenhol>
hay vatages como compresion que ayuda en el arranque del equipo
19:27
<Darkend>
bueno ¿tienes experienciacon los fat client?
19:27
<rprenhol>
esa es una estructuras mas comun para el export de home y otras particiones
19:27
si
19:27
19:27
<Darkend>
bueno en ese caso tienes algun tuto que podrias facilitarme por correo???
19:29
<rprenhol>
19:30
<Darkend>
te dejo mis correos en el privado
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